Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
In TBC, heroics required revered rep to get in. This was perfect, since everyone in a heroic knew the fights from doing the normal modes, and had the normal mode gear. Everyone learned.
It was a great mechanic, much better than "equip AH pvp 333 blues, heroics, here I come!".
Where did I say I want the game to be easy?On the first day, he outright told the class:
You're somewhat on the ball.
I don't fully agree, but I do not fully disagree either.
Firstly, thanks for keeping this civil, the same cannot be said for many posters in the past 50 or so pages.
The reason why I included that anecdote is because he (Mr. SASR) was instructing on a course. He did not make the course easier by lowering the required standards to get a course pass. He did, however, include many of his own personal experiences that MAY or MAY NOT get us through the course, hence the "i'm not going to make this hard" for you part. Ultimately, there are many ways to skin a cat, and many ways to pass that course. He can only show us the ways he found to be most useful, and ultimately it'll be up to us (the participants and students) if we want to use his methods or not. This was what i'm trying to get it. I apologise if I did not make it clear initially.
This brings me to my original point. WoW is like that course in a way, there really are many ways to approach it. When a newbie asks, all he's doing really is asking the more experienced players their perspectives on how to approach a problem. Some problems may have a hard-fast rule to solving it, some may not. Ultimately, it's up to the newbie to follow whatever the more experienced players have told them to the final word, or find out for themselves what things are like. Those are the two possible extreme outcomes (the more likely outcome is somwhere between those two extremes).
The problem is, like I mentioned previously, there exists little to no way a newbie can approach such experienced players without first being ridiculed and belittled. I am not advocating for Blizz to make WoW easier so more people will have "fun" (ie in my anecdote, the lowering of the course standards so more will pass), what i'm merely asking for is that more people in the community be willing to share their knowledge and perspective without the whole "i've had it harder than you newbies when BC / WOTLK / Cata initially dropped, so you can @#*# off and learn it the hard way" mentality.
Now on to your comparisons with Blizz and 3rd parties.
The reason why 3rd party sites thrive is because of what I perceive to be, as previously mentioned, that attitude of "i've had it harder so you can learn the hard way" attitudes given to newbies. I'm not advocating for them to be removed, or newer Blizz implementations so that we don't have to leave the game and open a webbrowser. All i'm saying is, as this game is an MMORPG, there should be more interactions between the community so such sites do not become an absolute necessity like they've become today.
Like a good teacher teaching a class, all he / she can do is show you what they think, through their experiences, is the best way to do things, but the class shouldn't be restricted to only learning from the teacher. Likewise, the teacher should not throw the class out to the wolves and get them to fend for themselves and start from scratch.
This is merely my opinion. Ultimately, I realise that there is no "right" or "wrong" when situations like these arise. But thank you so far, for offering your perspective.
Edited by Devianne on 1/26/2011 6:40 AM PST
The problem is, like I mentioned previously, there exists little to no way a newbie can approach such experienced players without first being ridiculed and belittled.
Agreed. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned about "pulling up your big girl panties". I LOL'ed when I read that. But that does not mean just because an individual is likely or less likely to give up asking or questioning because of jerks, that there is not a problem with the community being asshats when asked for help.
As for your second point, if they do remember that they were once newbies, why is it then so hard to offer some of their time?
Your third: I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. =)
I appreciate your time taken to respond to my points. Unfortunately it seems that my time is up. I hope you have a nice day.
Edited by Devianne on 1/26/2011 7:02 AM PST
I guess I am one of the few out there that has no issue explaining the game, the fights, or whatever. I will only get mad at you if you are repeatedly (like 5 or 6 times) getting caught by the same mechanic, especially ones that are very noticeable. The only other time I will not tollarate something or snap and get short at someone is when they run the dungeon and dont say word one that they dont know what they are doing. So I run in there attack the boss and then they do something that not only gets themselves killed but the entire group. (H Stonecore anyone :)
I have no problem typing up 5 pages of explainations to make sure you know what you are doing and then usually by about halfway through the explanation I have the "gogogo" guy doing what they do best... (impatient little....) Since Im a tank I generally can ust ignore them and pull when I feel the group is ready.
I guess what Im trying to say here is that there are generally nice people out there that you end up getting on their bad side when you do the worste newbie thing ever and thats pulling without knowing whats going on. Will you generally get made fun of for not knowing something and asking? maybe. But its better than repeatedly wiping the group because you didnt know, and generally the fights can be explained on what you are doing.
Think of it this way, would you go into a raid and not say you didnt know what was going on and ask for a description? I should think not. Apply that to your heroics, suffer through the ridicule (if any is dished out) and get the info. You are only new to something once. So fear not, you will only have to be made fun of once per new instance. Since there is only like 8 instances that 8 times... gee I dont think thats all that much to get worked up over. Go in learn it the first time around and come out a better player. I think someone posted the old adage sticks and stones. Totally applies here. Honestly the content isnt THAT hard. although some are definately more of a pain than others (damn you Grim Batol and Stonecore... may I forever curse thee). At this point people generally have a working knowledge of the instances and you will prob be the only one who doesnt know whats up, but just remember that you are only new once. Get to the hardcore veterin status and im sure 90% of you will join the "vote to kick the n00b" crowd. All I can say is I hope that instead you will treat others as you would wish to be treated and in turn teach someone else when you are no longer new to the content.
You can create friendly NPC's that fight the boss with you. Voice acting can really be used well here. Kind of like a general on the battlefield warning players of incoming danger. They could yell "Spread out!" or "hide!" or "incoming horde on our left!".
You can develop an entire story with voice acting and cinematic sequences. Players will know why they're in this dungeon. Other than looking at the bosses like giant loot piniata's.
Sounds much like my suggestion of the "Guild Veteran" NPC.
But instead of working as an experienced human player screaming warnings in vent, it would happen before the fight, maybe with the help of some cool cinematics.
I really don't think this is an issue that should be addressed by incorporating DBM and Atlasloot into the game UI. Specially not DBM. There is a GREAT synergy opportunity here with personal and guild improvement, like someone's suggestion on a previous post, about character notes, or mine, as a guild perk for a NPC tutor.
This game is becoming more and more elegant with the cool cinematics and the phasing system. Cannibalizing 2 addons is a step backwards on this process, in my opinion.
Seriously, if some NPC showed up before you face the first boss of Blackrock Caverns, and he said something like:
Guild Veteran Rank 1
"Hummm... no, never seen, never heard of. But he is carrying some nasty look chains on his waist(?). Make sure he doesn't have the chance to use that."
Guild Veteran Rank 2
"Hummm... An ogre with chains. Well, all I know is that Ogres are not good at keeping their equipment and tools in a good shape. I could bet those chains can be broken if needed."
Guild Veteran Rank 3
"I'm not sure I've seen this specific ogre, but notice the heavy chains he is carrying... Ogres are strong enough to pulverize you if they have the chance for an aimed strike. If you somehow get trapped on those chains, break loose and run as fast as possible!"
Players could get some advice about the fight, how much advice depending on how successful his guild is and how much guild Rep he has. It would be an AWESOME benefit from being in a guild, and it could be done in nice aesthetics and with some lore.
Speaking about lore, make the NPC with options like:
"Hey, old man, any hints for this fight?" - pure fight mechanics, like the example above.
"What do you know about this foe?" - Lore about the boss, his plans and motivations.
I think there are thousand of possibilities, instead of some UI on the world map (which, btw, is on a good state now with the quests integrated into it).
Just want to clarify that I'm not throwing stones on the plans for the "advanced map" the Devs are working on. I just think that you might be seeing the game with a dichotomy that doesn't have to exist: either is functionality (incorporating DBM) or awesomeness-game-feel (I could quote all Harrison Jones appearances). If anything I said here didn't sounded like constructive criticism, It's a botch on how to express myself properly.
You go into Blackwing descent and each boss is sitting cozy in thier own rooms. Almost like they're just standing there waiting to be killed.
Look at all the first person action games and how the story and environment evolves aroudn the player. Look at Dead Space 2. The world comes alive around you. NPC's are communicating with you; providing depth to the story.
World of Warcraft doesn't need a manual. It just need different ideas to help make the world come alive and provide the players with a sense of purpose.
There's so much potential here. The tanking and healing problem could be completely eliminated by replacing them with scripted or intelligent NPC's. Raids and Dungeons would require only DPS classes. The NPC's take care of the healing and tanking. But they would also be the raid leaders, providing a sense of direction, purpose and at the same time, unveiling a compelling story.
I think of Tirion Fordring(?) while reading this. He is there, he is leading, and he is not tanking the Lich King. As much as I would LOVE not have to depend on tank's availability to do dungeons and raids, I would HATE to play a game where I don't have the interaction we have now with good tanks and good healers. I don't like your idea at all. :(
Edited by Opalbreeze on 1/28/2011 3:04 AM PST
The tanking and healing problem could be completely eliminated by replacing them with scripted or intelligent NPC's. Raids and Dungeons would require only DPS classes. The NPC's take care of the healing and tanking.
Tanking is only needed because of aggro mechanics. Healers are only needed because tanks can't heal themselves. The trinity archetype model is old, very old. It dates back to the Dungeons and Dragons era before video games even existed.
Game designers design virtual worlds and make them come alive. What makes people enjoy these virtual worlds so much is because they can interact with it. What does a healer interact with? A user interface.
In my opinion, let the players interact with the world and let the machines do the chores.
Edited by Sarenna on 1/28/2011 12:08 PM PST
Just so you know, all of you who are asking to have things more and more spoonfed to you...your ideas will ruin the game. They will take the guts out of the game, and water down the challenges to the point of meaninglessness. That thrill of fear and tension, that stimulation, the chance that you could lose, the victory achieved after prior losses because you actually improved your game and were rewarded for your efforts...that's what makes the game *fun*. Knowing that overcoming the challenges is within your abilities...that's also what makes the game fun.
The problem here seems to be that
a) not enough of the playerbase has a mature, adult understanding of what level of challenge a game should require (why would they, most of them aren't adults)
b) more importantly, BLIZZARD IS NOT PUTTING THEIR FOOT DOWN HARD ENOUGH ON THIS ISSUE.
I damn near wept tears of joy at Ghostcrawlers, "Dungeons are hard!" post. I didn't weep, nor even get misty, but I did a little fist pump and said, "Yes!" under my breath. That's what this game needs more of. I don't mean that it needs to be ultra mega hard, but that Blizzard needs to take a stand, and have some damn integrity, for Christ's sake. At least if they did that, we'd all know where we stand.
The way things are now, people start to have a hard time, and because of the ways that Blizzard has catered to complaints in the past, these people actually believe that they shouldn't have to deal with it, and that something will be done about it. These people need to know that nothing will be done about it, and that they will have to play better in order to get the bigger rewards. Nothing in this game is really that hard, not compared to games that are actually hard (Ninja Gaiden Black). There is no solid communication from Blizzard to the playerbase as to the nature of this game. Blizzard are the game designers; when they make an RPG, it is their job to show us what an RPG is. I mean, I've seen posts from people who don't know or care what an RPG is even, people who think that leveling is stupid, people who, moreover, walk into here because everyone else is playing it, people who don't like RPGs and think that WoW should be less of an RPG because they don't like RPGs (why are they playing WoW then?), and worst of all...their suggestions are being listened to.
I think that there have been a lot of good improvements to the game since Vanilla, for sure. I don't think that everything needs to be unnecessarily hard, nor do I think that this game, or any game, only exists in order to feed the egos of the "elitist obsessive no-life losers" who will take the time to obsess over the game in a way that "regular people" can't and won't. That's not what it's about. Nor is it about making the whole thing Candyland for casuals who don't believe that a game should expect any thought out of you. I don't have the time or inclination to spell out that philosophical point for those people. A game needs challenge as well as accessibility to be successful. Where this balance is struck is a matter of taste that is completely up to the game designers.
No matter where the balance is struck, people will complain, people will leave, and people will believe that their leaving is a symptom of a larger movement that will threaten the livelihood of the gaming company. Let me tell you: if EVE Online can survive and thrive for over 10 years, then Blizzard won't die, no matter how casual-unfriendly they make this game. You and all your friends could leave because dungeons are too hard, and Blizzard won't die.
We don't need the balance to go one way or the other, particularly. We need Blizzard to pick their balance point, make it clear what their decision is, and STICK WITH IT.
I think the direction that they are taking with Cataclysm is a good one. I think they could stand to retrofit the WOTLK dungeons to fit the Cataclysm philosophy and that would be awesome. I think that they could put some more gamesmanship in their game, and it would benefit everyone, even the people who don't like difficulty. If those people stuck with it, they might find that putting some effort into their game feels good. If not...no big deal. That's just my opinion. But they need to decide. And Azeroth won't end if you don't feel like learning how to play the game. Believe it.
Thats actually quite the valid point, except one problem: The lore IS there, and it IS redundantly deep, and it really does give some insight as to what the current evil thing is and what its going to do via modus operandi (Old gods have been trapped inside Azeroth for like ever, they want out, they can only telepathically communicate with mortal races, of course they are going to corrupt our strongest and then turn them against us). The problem is too many people disregard the lore as extra reading and therefor useless. If you take the time to read the quest info, you get rather large glimpses of the who, what, when, where, and how various important characters in the lore feel about it as well.
3 to 1 Deathwing will require something involving the original/new Demonsoul to defeat him as an important mechanic, and 99.6% of all players in the game, 90% of those that kill Deathwing, will have no clue what the Demonsoul is, or the things its already caused, or even care about it.
In Dungeons and Dragons their really never was a "tank" or "healer". It was everyone doing what you can, and healers simply do what they can and you do a saving throw to decide "Do i pull through this wound or does it kill me" it was affected by stats, but still honestly just a flat out RGN with a 9 sided die. With a tank/healer system there is more control over the fight from the player side, but GW2 is supposedly doing this thing where no one is a tank or healer, and groups just have to know how to work together against big monsters. Think any fantasy book you have ever read, like Dragon Lance, and there ya go.
Also... Tyrion wasn't tanking the Lich King because he got his useless ass frozen by spending too much time /taunting and /charging with Ashbringer -.-
EDIT: Spell check
Edited by Grandbreaker on 2/20/2011 1:35 PM PST
85 Human Warrior
How can people learn new dungeons when others are unwilling to teach? When I whine about 'solo dungeons' people respond; rightly so, with 'it's an MMO, you need to expect to depend on others for help.'
This just happened to me. I asked for help in a heroic and they responded, "NOOB!!" and " Auta do you know how to delete your account?"
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.