Tol barad and the 100 vs 30 fight!

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85 Goblin Hunter
10215
I don't want to whine or moan about TB. I just question one thing about this whole fiasco.

If, as Bashiok says, it's completely balanced--that is, whether you're in the raid or not doesn't ACTUALLY matter...

...why do people report such vastly different /who totals? Why is it people can be on the alliance, do /who z-"Tol Barad" and get vastly more people than when they log onto the horde and do the same? Are these outdated reports? WAS it an exploit that's since been fixed? Are these people just on crack?

Horde on my server don't even try anymore because of this perception. Clarity would be nice.
90 Orc Warrior
6515
01/27/2011 1:04 PMPosted by Vongimi
Different kind of people playing at night then during the day. Perhaps the Alliance night crowd is more skilled then the Horde night crowd.

And I loled hard @ the guy who said the alliance had an unfair advantage because they all coordinated in vent and were high end PvPers.... thats called being outplayed good sir, not an issue with TB


Its completely getting outplayed, I agree, but its also an unfair advantage. If a sport has 2 captains and only one captain was allowed to pick his team and the other captains team was chosen randomly, who is going to win?
85 Tauren Druid
9460
01/27/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Bashiok
it is a exploit, if you leave raid while TB is going on you do not get ported out and it lets an additional person in.


It doesn't actually work. The balance of factions is not dependant on if you’re in a raid or not. It's a mis-perception based on the inability to see the opposing team's numbers. What’s happening is that you can leave a raid, remain in Tol Barad, and because your old raid may pick up an additional player from the queue there’s an assumption that your side is getting more players. In fact the other side is keeping up and also getting additional players. We’ve verified across a number of realms that faction balance remains equal, even in cases where we found people actively attempting to use this to outnumber the opposing team. They weren't.

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.


I'm glad you clarified that Bash.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4045
Bashiok you still there? My post got lost w/o any views and I dont wanna bump it to cross my fingers and hope someone responds. so here's the copy/paste:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, Am I missing something? I swear I heard somewhere that the tol barad balance issue was getting fixed on 4.0.6... I went and looked at the patch notes and this is all I found...

•Tol Barad

•Players will now be teleported out of the Tol Barad micro dungeons 15 minutes before the beginning of the next battle.
•The weekly PvP quest "Victory in Tol Barad" now awards 200 Honor Points and 3 Tol Barad Commendations.
•Players can now see the status of Tol Barad on the World Map no matter where they are. The time to the next battle is displayed by zooming into the Tol Barad section of the map. The current controlling faction can be seen on the Eastern Kingdoms map.


So where is it that is that which I am trying to find!? O.o
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Gnome Warrior
12365
01/27/2011 1:10 PMPosted by Ðeathßringer


So where is it that is that which I am trying to find!? O.o


I think Zarhym indicated some changes for the future, but I'm not sure when those changes will take place. One thing he mentioned was having 2 keeps would make the 3rd cap more quickly. So defense strats might have to change a bit to attempt to keep 2 in flux and/or capped at all times.
90 Dwarf Hunter
13315
It only looks like that because the defender only needs to prevent the attacker from completely controlling all three bases. So far the defense strategy has been to zerg one base at a time, with overwhelming odds since the attacker needs to be at all three in some capacity.
4 Goblin Warlock
0
01/27/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Bashiok
it is a exploit, if you leave raid while TB is going on you do not get ported out and it lets an additional person in.


It doesn't actually work. The balance of factions is not dependant on if you’re in a raid or not. It's a mis-perception based on the inability to see the opposing team's numbers. What’s happening is that you can leave a raid, remain in Tol Barad, and because your old raid may pick up an additional player from the queue there’s an assumption that your side is getting more players. In fact the other side is keeping up and also getting additional players. We’ve verified across a number of realms that faction balance remains equal, even in cases where we found people actively attempting to use this to outnumber the opposing team. They weren't.

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.


So you ignore the people that have characters on both sides that do /who? I was in a TB yesterday, /who for horde revealed 24 people. Logged out, logged on ally toon. Did /who. Maxed out my /who screen. I even asked one of my friends IN the TB how many they had, and he said they had a full raid group at each base.

Basically, 3:1, regardless of what you've seen. I'd like the Horde to be able to gain control more than once every 3 weeks. So how about a 2 min respawn timer for D. You may have said you want it to be challenging for O, but that's a terrible idea. Short of a MASSIVE coordination between guilds, it should be impossible to D.
85 Tauren Druid
6740
If what the blue says is true then the following applies.

I love how everyone QQs about it being broken. Most are just mad that it doesn't change hands every battle.

TB changes hands on my server pretty often. When we lose on an attack people QQ like the sky is falling and claim its way to easy to defend. While its in favor of the defender I wouldn't call it broken. If it were then how do we lose so often if its so easy to defend? Bads not getting what they want is all I get out of the QQ honestly.

If they are aware of the issue but do not wish to admit it then the above does not apply but the following does.


Edit: typo + additional content
L2balance.
Edited by Appaz on 1/27/2011 1:39 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
0


Your definition of "turnover" must be different than mine. Other than the early morning, the Alliance on my server never have TB.

I guess the idea of one faction locking down a crucial area for days on end with minimal effort excites you guys? lol


I don't understand the early morning thing.

I get it that horde might not reperesent and Alliance gets it, but how do they lose it back again? It is hard to lose TB.... So once you have it if you are losing it back, it has something more to do than an issue with TB, it has to do with being out played by an even number of opposing players by a pretty significant amount.


In short: TB is a much different animal with less players. (Which means it's not a faceroll for defenders, especially against geared attackers.) The more players there are, the more chance that the defenders will have an easier time, which is probably why this BG turned into a disaster in the first place.

There's also the fact that there some players new to the zone still don't know the objectives. I once had a player act in amazement when I told him of the objectives as attacker.

Blizzard admitted themselves they made TB too hard for the attackers. We know this from their blog post. Beta testers even complained of the lopsidedness beforehand. Why they didn't act upon it before the expansion was released is beyond anyone's guess.
7 Human Mage
0
This issue with TB, as I'm sure has been mentioned, isn't about not getting ported out after you leave the raid group but doing something else* that allows players to throw the system out of balance and stack the odds in their favor.

*I won't mention said exploit since a relative did bring it up on these forums and was banned for it.

I play on several realms and have seen firsthand how this exploit works. It gets frequently discussed in trade, TB gen, and raid chat. People are informed who to whisper as they carry the exploit out and it allows what was suppose to be a 100v100 fight, into a 300v150 (exaggerated numbers).

So the idea that it doesn't "work" as said by Bashiok is entirely untrue as its been proven to work and there are numerous examples, as creative as they may be, which are highlighted in several Youtube videos and google searches on the very exploit that we're all dancing around talking about b/c we know a ban is incoming if it gets discussed.
85 Undead Warlock
10365
Different kind of people playing at night then during the day. Perhaps the Alliance night crowd is more skilled then the Horde night crowd.

And I loled hard @ the guy who said the alliance had an unfair advantage because they all coordinated in vent and were high end PvPers.... thats called being outplayed good sir, not an issue with TB


Its completely getting outplayed, I agree, but its also an unfair advantage. If a sport has 2 captains and only one captain was allowed to pick his team and the other captains team was chosen randomly, who is going to win?


this is a really poor comparison...this is a video game, the consequences are your pixels don't look the way you may want them to; in the real world someone loses millions of dollars...nothing is preventing you from grabbing a bunch of ppl jumping in a vent( or mumble, or whatever shared communication channel) and doing the exact same thing you all have the same tools available to you thus an even playing field...with pixels
Edited by Ellïpsis on 1/27/2011 1:24 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
8905
maybe i'm crazy but from a "fun" standpoint shouldn't it be harder to defend then to attack so that it switches factions more often?

because if it switched factions almost every time people would want to do it a lot more to get the items they need and the honor and stuff from winning

85 Human Paladin
3570
01/27/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Welldunn
Good, now re-think this idea of capping the number of participants in favor of a system like tenacity.

My server is heavily overpopulated with Horde. We find scenarios where the major PvP guild on the Alliance side of the fence can have large numbers of their guild queue knowing full well they are going to all get in to the battle.

They then run around in their conquest gear, in vent/teamspeak running a coordinated assault, in essence a "rated bg" group, versus a bunch of Horde puggles (inc the random one or two who just dinged 85 the day before).

Explain to me how this is not a distinct and definitive advantage to them?


The 1:1 ratio also encourages players to hop on alts of the opposing faction to purposely undermine the efforts to retake the zone. Whether it's mining/herbing during battle or dropping group to afk without being visible or other various tactics. Since attacking is harder, it's far more successful to disrupt the opponent's attack than actually participate in defense. I hate systems that are set up in a way to reward bad behavior.

I also still hate the concept, in general, of denying people access to part of the game. And I hate feeling like participation in Tol Barad would be a detriment to my faction since I'd be below average if I jumped in, so the horde player I'd let into the battle would probably be better than me and I'd be hurting my faction's chances by joining. It's really not a fun feeling in a game to feel like trying your best is worse than not trying at all.
85 Goblin Priest
0
01/27/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Bashiok
it is a exploit, if you leave raid while TB is going on you do not get ported out and it lets an additional person in.


It doesn't actually work. The balance of factions is not dependant on if you’re in a raid or not. It's a mis-perception based on the inability to see the opposing team's numbers. What’s happening is that you can leave a raid, remain in Tol Barad, and because your old raid may pick up an additional player from the queue there’s an assumption that your side is getting more players. In fact the other side is keeping up and also getting additional players. We’ve verified across a number of realms that faction balance remains equal, even in cases where we found people actively attempting to use this to outnumber the opposing team. They weren't.

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.


Not the balance of the actual battleground. Everyone has been crying that this is absolutely ridiculous and no one wants to play since basically release, and yet the people who are paying your salaries are paying for an incomplete product. It's like you said "burger and fries" and then didn't give us a meat patty. PvP is half the game. PvE is the other half. People complain that PvE is too hard, and I happen to disagree because I wasn't born of WotLK. People complain that PvP is broken, and that is clearly evident.

Rated BGs are horrible due to the fact that they take far longer than arenas and give the same rewards. I can max my conquest points in about 2 hours in arena, and go up significantly in rating. In rated BGs, you'd be lucky to play 4 games in 2 hours, and get nowhere near the PR or the points. You're trying to cover up balance issues by diluting the impact of a single player on a game, which is just lazy development. That's not to say that arena is good, however, because the class imbalances are incredibly apparent under that microscope. World PvP yields no worthwhile rewards, and Tol Barad isn't even world PvP because the place is INSTANCED. It's just a battleground on a timer that yields the most honor for the time spent. The dailies are a grind, and as long as your faction controls the zone for 2.5 hours every week it's not hard to get your easy, free loots.

That being said, the balance issues are glaring and despite having a mountain of data collected from live servers and an equally enormous pile of opportunities to balance the battleground AND have it be fun and interesting. Examples include (my personal recommendation) making the control bars for the nodes only move in the direction of the attacker, creating the need for both attackers and defenders to split forces more evenly and a more hectic, intense "race to the finish" type of situation. Or, whoever controls more nodes the end of the battle wins, with a tie resulting in a sudden-death type scenario where if you gain control of a node (goes from contested to your control) or your opponent loses control (their node goes "contested"), you win the game on the spot. Both create a more fast-paced and hectic world PvP encounter.
85 Orc Hunter
7955
01/27/2011 12:33 PMPosted by Dezzars
Om my server its easy to track...i'll save you time "watching it"

Horde always has it...has had it since day 1, and only gave it to alliance to take advantage of your fix...rinse repeat.

i guess your fix is for me to pay you additional money for me to switch sides in order for me to get access to the instance and the additional daily quest


Be better imo
1 Draenei Shaman
0
It does indeed work, when you leave the raid it tricks the system, I logged onto one of my Horde alts, did a quick /who Tol Barad, it came up with 34 people, I quickly logged back onto my Alliance toon, and Horde had over 100 players at slagworks alone....
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