Tol barad and the 100 vs 30 fight!

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70 Undead Mage
1365
01/27/2011 3:46 PMPosted by Kurenai


It doesn't actually work. The balance of factions is not dependant on if you’re in a raid or not. It's a mis-perception based on the inability to see the opposing team's numbers. What’s happening is that you can leave a raid, remain in Tol Barad, and because your old raid may pick up an additional player from the queue there’s an assumption that your side is getting more players. In fact the other side is keeping up and also getting additional players. We’ve verified across a number of realms that faction balance remains equal, even in cases where we found people actively attempting to use this to outnumber the opposing team. They weren't.

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.



It is time to make this declaration. The fact that someone at Blizzard has not beeen fired over Tol barad is amazing. Just my opnion I'm sorry if its offensive. Just how I feel now. You guys have let me down and your uncaring actions have gotten me to this state of mind.


Because, there's no reason to fire someone over Tol Barad.
96 Draenei Shaman
10995
01/27/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Bashiok

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.


.. and yet still have done nothing to fix it.
85 Draenei Hunter
1480
01/27/2011 4:01 PMPosted by Aestu
I think Zarhym indicated some changes for the future, but I'm not sure when those changes will take place. One thing he mentioned was having 2 keeps would make the 3rd cap more quickly. So defense strats might have to change a bit to attempt to keep 2 in flux and/or capped at all times.


Let the man speak for himself.


Stop with the snappy retorts and offer some content. I don't care what your issue is just because someone else is using a different colored text, but its painfully obvious you hold one. Settle down.

I've done the /who with Tol Barad myself, and frankly it does seem to be inconsistent. It only takes a few seconds to swap from one faction to the other to take a peek at this. Its never been as dramatic on this server as others are claiming theirs to be, but its certainly not 1vs1.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
01/27/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Welldunn

Good, now re-think this idea of capping the number of participants in favor of a system like tenacity.

My server is heavily overpopulated with Horde. We find scenarios where the major PvP guild on the Alliance side of the fence can have large numbers of their guild queue knowing full well they are going to all get in to the battle.

They then run around in their conquest gear, in vent/teamspeak running a coordinated assault, in essence a "rated bg" group, versus a bunch of Horde puggles (inc the random one or two who just dinged 85 the day before).

Explain to me how this is not a distinct and definitive advantage to them?

When it is all said and done, one faction ends up being punished for your inability to balance a server population.

Maybe tenacity isn't the answer, but capping the amount who get in and creating the above scenario certainly isn't either.

You can come up with all of the little tricks and gimmicks you want , but until you actually balance servers (and you have had several years to correct this problem on my server in particular) it's putting lipstick on a potbelly pig.


I have to say it, but coming from a server with the opposite population problem, where the alliance outnumber the horde 4:1, its nice to have a world bg that doesn't completely cater to the higher population faction. Especially since during wrath a good number of the horde faction transfered to alliance so that they would have wintergrasp all the time. I bet most of them are regretting that decision now.

As for balancing servers, that is a rather impossible task. They can't or won't force people to transfer off, and free transfers to other servers rarely do much of anything to help. The best they can do is leave something like this in place and hope that the drive for gear / success causes the higher population faction to move to easier waters. This is better than the way wrath was where there were clear distinctive rewards for being on the higher population faction.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
I don't know where you all are getting this data from but you may want to check out gul'dan. At times, there are less than 10 of us in the raid and at least 30 horde. Probably more than that. I don't know if there is a minimum number at which balance kicks in but something needs to be done about this. If it has to be 10 on 10, so be it.



25 players per side, so that a truly lop pop side cant collectively grief the higher pop side by just not participating, but beyond 25 / side, it is a 1:1 ratio.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
01/27/2011 1:00 PMPosted by Korradin
I believe you, however the next step is doing something about it. On many realms the same complaint is prevalent - one side holds for days. So while we appreciate you monitoring the turnover, we'd like to see measures in the works to prevent the long-term holding by one side. WG was great because while defending was possible, it never took days to take it over. There was good balance and switching of sides. Tol Barad is just horrible in this respect.


Depends on the realm, on a couple that I have characters on, WG was only held by one faction on Tuesday when all the raiding guilds would put together organized groups to take it so that they could complete VOA for the week. For the rest of the week, the 4:1 or greater imbalance would make it basically impossible for the smaller faction to win.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6485
We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover


clearly not close enough. . . PVP is god awful right now!! This zone is definately a laughable attempt at "world pvp". (ha, ha, haaaaa!!)
100 Human Priest
16215
tol barad on my server is fairly balanced, where as it may take a few days to get it from the horde, we usually end up holding it for a few days at a time, so it all works out. Besides when we actually win it makes it so much more epic. My advice is play more intelligently, it shouldnt be easy, and its not.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
It counts people in the peninsula also, and /who is capped to 49 people. So its an incredibly inaccurate way to tell who's there.
86 Blood Elf Death Knight
6625
The 1:1 ratio can not be maintained until the remove players from the battle to keep it 1:1.


Example:

40 people from both faction queue. Horde have 30 still in the queue, however Alliance have no one in their queue.

10 minutes into the battle, 10 Alliance give up and leave. Not just the raid, but the entire zone. It is now 40:30 H:A. When 5 or 10 more Alliance leave out of frustration, it gets even worse and becomes impossible for to win.

The more populated faction will never encounter this problem, as when someone leaves the zone, they are almost always replaced immediately.

Once the lower populated faction's queue "dries up", that's it. Every player that leaves (or afks) starts to imbalance the match.
85 Blood Elf Priest
4110
01/27/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Pinkis
Tol barad and the 100 vs 30 fight!


Leonidas and the 300 spartans overcame impossible odds.

EDIT: And they did it in real life.


Awwwwwwwwwwww snap.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
01/27/2011 1:16 PMPosted by Iacobus
Blizzard admitted themselves they made TB too hard for the attackers. We know this from their blog post. Beta testers even complained of the lopsidedness beforehand. Why they didn't act upon it before the expansion was released is beyond anyone's guess.


The simple answer is, you have 50,000 man hours worth of work to do, and 10,000 man hours to do it in. Some things have to slide. At least it was some balance issues and not server stability stuff. I'd much rather be able to play and let them fix the balance issues later, rather than have to do something else because they servers can't stay up for more than 15 min at a time.
85 Worgen Hunter
0
I think some peeps need to check their data feeds.

I know for my server, the only time Alliance wins is when a few of the raiding guilds band together in order to take the place to do the raid instance. Utilizing the exploit to get well more than the intended # of players into the zone.

Any other time, the horde does it far more than alliance, and it is a slaughter.

FIX TB, as it is, I loathe the battle. If not for the dailies and the raid instance I would 100% avoid it.
Edited by Jawstheshark on 1/27/2011 5:03 PM PST
88 Blood Elf Paladin
12595
01/27/2011 2:36 PMPosted by Kooqu
How does having a larger population mean that you lose more?


It is easier for the PVPers of the smaller faction to get into tol barad, therefore there is usually a skill disparity between the larger faction and the smaller faction. The larger the size disparity, the greater the skill disparity.
100 Worgen Hunter
11000
01/27/2011 4:54 PMPosted by Wickedwombat
The 1:1 ratio can not be maintained until the remove players from the battle to keep it 1:1.


Example:

40 people from both faction queue. Horde have 30 still in the queue, however Alliance have no one in their queue.

10 minutes into the battle, 10 Alliance give up and leave. Not just the raid, but the entire zone. It is now 40:30 H:A. When 5 or 10 more Alliance leave out of frustration, it gets even worse and becomes impossible for to win.

The more populated faction will never encounter this problem, as when someone leaves the zone, they are almost always replaced immediately.

Once the lower populated faction's queue "dries up", that's it. Every player that leaves (or afks) starts to imbalance the match.


That could be happening but the unbalance I saw was through out the entire battle and not just near the end.

EDIT: I've heard Alliance players telling people to drop raid when they get in. So at least on my server both sides are doing this on purpose. The horde just happen to be better at cheating.
Edited by Adamsavage on 1/27/2011 5:38 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7975
01/27/2011 2:18 PMPosted by Lassidar
They also had a lot more than 300 people.


They ALSO had some very favorable terrain that only allowed for minimal exposure at any given time...

the problem with lol barad is simple... D "group up and run circles... anything that gets taken zerg it... and move on"

O "we have to hold all three so split into three groups and go... also go asap and drop those towers or we'll run out of time..."

Meanwhile....

D "Zerg lol... zZzZzZzZerg!! /faceroll = win"

Edit - upon further reflection it appears to be a giant game of whack a mole from the defensive perspective... Even if O matches strategies (zerging)...


Bad strategy is bad. Attack and hold one position. Keep it. Watch the timer. Watch the defender's defensive pattern. Split into two groups and attack the second most defended position. this is the hard part, you need to hold it. Get two 5 man strike groups to act as raiders on the defender's supply column (typically all defenders rezzing at one point are told to move and attack/reinforce the next target). This column is mostly stragglers, very few defenders will group up before moving meaning you are picking off one or two at a time. Keep picking them off before they can reinforce. When the timer is almost up, hit the least defended target hard.

GG.
100 Human Mage
14380




I am pretty sure there can be more than one raid for each faction #1 and also there was talk about it not enforcing a 1:1 until a certain number of people join not sure about that though. I find it highly unlikely that you were the ONLY person to queue from your whole faction.


No, I was astonished. To be frank, it was 2am or so on an US East Coast server (I'm in the west coast) After my initial slaughter a few others came trickling in, but the map was literally 4:7 or so in the final minutes.
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