Tol barad and the 100 vs 30 fight!

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85 Human Warrior
9285
01/27/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Bashiok
it is a exploit, if you leave raid while TB is going on you do not get ported out and it lets an additional person in.


It doesn't actually work. The balance of factions is not dependant on if you’re in a raid or not. It's a mis-perception based on the inability to see the opposing team's numbers. What’s happening is that you can leave a raid, remain in Tol Barad, and because your old raid may pick up an additional player from the queue there’s an assumption that your side is getting more players. In fact the other side is keeping up and also getting additional players. We’ve verified across a number of realms that faction balance remains equal, even in cases where we found people actively attempting to use this to outnumber the opposing team. They weren't.

We keep a close eye on Tol Barad faction balance and turnover.


1. Have to have 3 on attack, whereas defenders have to defend only one.
2. What happened to the whole 'we want out content to be played' sunwell-like mantra?

I don't know man, if it was my design, I definitely wouldn't be proud of it.


86 Night Elf Hunter
2950
01/27/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Pinkis
Tol barad and the 100 vs 30 fight!


Leonidas and the 300 spartans overcame impossible odds.

EDIT: And they did it in real life.


1. There was a force of 7,000 men in that pass holding back an estimated 100,000 to 300,000 (of which most could not be brought to bear at any one time)

2. After being betrayed Leonidas sent away all but 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and perhaps a few hundred others, the vast majority of whom were killed.

3. Xerxes went on to overrun Boeotia and captured Athens.

So, no, they did not overcome.

BTW - the Greek fleet, on hearing of the fall of Thermopylae, retreated to Salamis. Later they sought a decisive engagement and beat the Persian fleet. Xerxes didn't want to be trapped in Europe so he withdrew and the force he left behind was later defeated by the Greek armies.


Stranger, go tell the Spartans
That we lie here
True, even to the death
To our Spartan way of life.

100 Blood Elf Mage
16500
I believe the blue here is incorrect. They may monitor it...but 2 days ago I was in a TB where alli outnumbered us almost 2 to 1 at all 3 bases. That is not possible unless there were actually more of them in the battleground. I am done with that battleground until the bug/exploit/whatever is fix and that fix is published. ktksbye
85 Tauren Paladin
5890
i willing to bet then when you / who the people in tol barad and you see more of one faction then the other it is because the bridge exploit, as people run in to check the timer they will appear in the zone, thus appearing on your /who list
58 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
still don't get what is the point of not getting kicked off the battleground if you're not in the raid group.
You will not get buffs, heals, and you can't see where people is fighting or which base should defend.
Just make it like ANY OTHER BG, if you leave or go afk, you should get kicked and ported away.
100 Blood Elf Mage
16500
01/27/2011 2:30 PMPosted by Leppy
Leonidas and the 300 spartans overcame impossible odds.

EDIT: And they did it in real life.


If you get all your information from blockbuster movies, I guess.

But in 'real life' they had thousands of greeks, and thousand of slaves to fight by their side. As stated earlier, they were also in favourable terrain. I hope by "overcame impossible odds" you actually mean were flanked and butchered, right?


Read history....they had more the first few days but when it looked hopeless, everyone else was sent home and the 300 Spartans were left to fight off the entire Persian army...they were betrayed, out-flanked, and they all died...they did however succeed in causing a crushing blow that the Persians did not recover from. They went home not long after.
85 Blood Elf Mage
9110
If someone on Alliance exploits out and a new person comes in, the Alliance has 31, to the Horde's 30... until someone horde side queues up. That's WHY you have a queue system.


There is no exploit. If someone drops from raid, no one new comes in unless someone on the other side also comes in....
85 Tauren Druid
6150
Different kind of people playing at night then during the day. Perhaps the Alliance night crowd is more skilled then the Horde night crowd.

And I loled hard @ the guy who said the alliance had an unfair advantage because they all coordinated in vent and were high end PvPers.... thats called being outplayed good sir, not an issue with TB


How is that being outplayed? You need to go back and learn how to read my man. It is ONE GUILD, in fact an actual rated BG team or two, doing this. This isn't a bunch of people getting up in trade chat then pulling this off, some sort of impressive display of logistics and coordination to make it happen.

And it isn't random buddy since they are the vastly outnumbered faction they are assured of getting in when they queue unlike any group the larger faction could attempt to throw together in some sort of fashion. If either side could manage to 1. wait to see who actually gets in 2. put out an all points for everyone to get in a designated vent then 3. start getting it coordinated and off and running that would be truly impressive.

But if you bothered to digest what was written that ain't what's going down.

So now let's have a good "lol" at your lack of reading comprehension.

P.S. So if that is your idea of an even playing field you most likely enjoy playing 8 years in a game of one on one.
Edited by Welldunn on 1/28/2011 12:06 AM PST
85 Undead Warrior
10795
Question then... are you happy with how it is now (more or less)? Because D wins a LOT and I know you've stated you want it harder on O than D... so is this the right balance, in your opinion?

Ya know, I never understood Blizzard's philosophy on this - that they wanted offense to be harder so that winning it meant something. It seems like a very backwards approach. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to make it difficult to defend, because Baradin Hold should be something that you want to work hard to keep. Making defense ridiculously easy just means that one side gets to hold TB the vast majority of the time and sure, I suppose that means that overcoming the defense and winning makes it valuable, but... it just doesn't make sense.
90 Human Death Knight
11060
Ok, I haven't read this entire thread or even any of the other threads on Tol Barad. I only started working on Tol Barad rep this past week and the idea behind the zone shows good promise. Yeah, there are issues, but not a lot of viable suggestions on how to fix it.

BUT....! With everyone's reference to "300" I had a couple thoughts on this situation:

A - Defense almost always has an advantage. Even if the numbers are equal, defense will come out ahead more often than not. Thus is in Real Life as well as games. So we need a way of balancing things when defense has suc an easy time of it like they do in Tol Barad.

B - Wintergrasp had some issues along these lines as well. However, changes were implemented that gave an advantage to the attackers the longer they went without a win. Why not initiate something like that here?

My suggestion is to add 5 players to the attacking side each time they lose. 4 losses in a row would be 20 extra people the next time the fight queues up. They would be hard pressed to NOT win eventually! If you think the addition of 5 players is too much, this can be adjusted. Maybe go with 4 at a time or even 3. At least show you are giving the attackers some consideration.

This way, you don't have to rework the mechanics of the fight, just the queuing mechanism.

It's not perfect, but it's a suggestion. Let me know what you think.

And thank you for giving us this whole other world to play in!


85 Human Death Knight
4925
I don't understand the early morning thing.

I get it that horde might not reperesent and Alliance gets it, but how do they lose it back again? It is hard to lose TB.... So once you have it if you are losing it back, it has something more to do than an issue with TB, it has to do with being out played by an even number of opposing players by a pretty significant amount.


Simple really.....when you lose TB it's usually due to a team that can't work together or follow simple orders. I've lost track of how many times 3-4 people will chase one guy out the front entrance while his buddies come in the side entrances and kill the one or two that were smart enough to stay in the base. It's actually quite painful to see this happen time and time again. Quite a few people on my server make "don't chase them! Stay in the base" into some kind of rocket science.

There's also the folks that'll drive sieges INTO the bases. On the one hand the siege has one million HP and while it can't attack you the person inside does count towards the momentum bar and swinging it in favor of their faction. On the other hand when you get five people focusing on the siege while one or two people pick them off one by one.......well you get the idea :-/

01/27/2011 1:05 PMPosted by Shannon
I don't want to whine or moan about TB. I just question one thing about this whole fiasco.

If, as Bashiok says, it's completely balanced--that is, whether you're in the raid or not doesn't ACTUALLY matter...

...why do people report such vastly different /who totals? Why is it people can be on the alliance, do /who z-"Tol Barad" and get vastly more people than when they log onto the horde and do the same? Are these outdated reports? WAS it an exploit that's since been fixed? Are these people just on crack?

Horde on my server don't even try anymore because of this perception. Clarity would be nice.


This is of course the million dollar question isn't it? For all the claims that it's even and balanced teams there's still the issue that you can do a /who on Tol Barad and come up with uneven numbers when it's off peak. On a one to one ratio I expect just that: either even teams or something like 26 to 25 (obviously to account for more people joining). You shouldn't be getting things like 10 to 4, 19 to 12, ect. Granted this CAN happen if people leave TB before it ends but I find it hard to believe that so many would consistantly leave the battle before it was over with.

In one recent battle I was in it was just two of us to start for about the first six or seven minutes. Within one minute we confirmed at least five Horde in the battle. A /who confirmed it.....only two of us there :-/
A couple of comments. First, I'm glad to hear that at least one exploit doesn't work and that it's being monitored.

Most of the counter-examples can be easily explained by the way /who works - when you look for "Tol Barad", you also get the Peninsula, and if you get "49", you have no idea how many might be in the battle area. You can narrow it down by restricting it to specific classes, hopefully not exceeding 49 of each class total in the battle and on the Peninsula.

As best I can tell, the minimum number of people allowed in on each side is 5. I've been queued, then gotten in and was the 6th or 7th, so I don't think it's any higher than that.

An earlier description of how the queuing works seems incorrect - where each time someone enters on one side, the side with the queue pops another one off. That only happens if the teams are even. It can get out of balance if someone leaves (but why would someone leave when there's only 5 minutes to go? 5 minutes for 75 honor even for losing? Might as well stay...). It can get out of balance if a bunch of people are offered entry, but a bunch on one side decline. However, once it's out of balance, no one else will be offered to enter on the larger side until it evens out again.

For the people saying that all the complaining about TB balance are from factions that aren't very good, all I can say is that when we don't have it, we go for 3-10 days before getting it back. When we do have it, we go for 3-10 days holding it, with rare exceptions.

I thought the description of a specific attack strategy was interesting, but I don't think it would work if the defenders simply follow the standard strategy (unless the defenders are REALLY bad, i.e. attackers can take out a group of 10 with a group of 5 fairly consistently).

I think the queuing system is excellent, MUCH better than tenacity (which doesn't really work). The queuing system makes it more attractive to switch to the side that is outnumbered, which means it's positive (stabilizing) feedback, rather than rewarding the side that's larger (which is negative, destabilizing feedback).

I don't know what happens if someone is invited directly to the raid. The correct solution is that they are in the raid, but still don't get to come in to the battle zone. They'd have to queue to be able to get in.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
0
Tol Barad: The worst experience I've ever had in WoW.
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