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Well I wonder why anyone would want to run in a raid with you guys if you guys don't even follow general loot etiquette. Prist, for shame, going Council on Open rolls without stating it for when a mount drops I can get it if you're going council for Loot that you can use for progression but a Mount, geez. That mount is really gonna help ya on your next heroic kill LOL.
If you're unable to give even new people a fair shot at loot, no wonder 25man guilds are dwindling.
4. Loot. Loot is awarded to recruits only after no member or raider has asked for it. That said, you are welcome to ask for loot at appropriate times.
Stated from your own website.
Nice that you add the phrase 'appropriate times'. Which means completely arbitrary.
The officers must realize that your 25 man raid guild is nearing implosion so they are giving themselves anything that they can get from other members.
BTW, if you see a member of this guild riding around on a Deathwing Mount, ask them if they were top rolls. The answer is, they were not. So anyone checking to join this guild, be ready to be treated like crap for your upgrades.
Oh, and go ahead and kick whoever you want out of the guild. Won't affect me at all muahahahahahaha.
And be original for once, fess up to get this over with Prist.
Hmm... http://trialanderror.guildlaunch.com/ is a nice website.
I wouldn't make this post if Cincinnatus didn't confirmed that it happened. That only raider ranks are allowed to roll on mounts that drop. IE anyone they want to exclude that helped in the kill from the looks of it. I'm guessing that the person who didn't get it was a person who just started, a 'recruit'??? or how long did they run with ya and you still didn't get raider rank? I wonder. Does the person have to run for a month, 6 months, a year? Was their dps so poor that you carried them?
Planning loot distribution for future progression is one thing, but stacking things against a raider who helped in a kill on loot that won't help progression? And yes, they are Raiders for having the skill to put up the dps to help you kill the level of bosses you guys are killing.
Please, tell the forum readers your side of the story or give a no comment. Tell us that you said only 'Raiders' can roll on a mount when it dropped. I'm sure others would like to read what your guys definition of a raider is and how many of you guys actually adhere to it.
Note: Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm not from this realm, not even horde, but heard the story from an alt and only ran with it once the details were confirmed from Cincinnatus. Consider this a long bump with some outside point of view. Just because a guild has the right to do whatever it wants to do doesn't make everything it does to individual members is right.
Edited by Visipac on 2/28/2012 10:49 AM PST
An officer did not get the mount. The mount roll was restricted to raider rank and above. The person who didn't get the mount was not of the appropriate rank, so the roll was discarded. He wasn't a recruit, he just didn't want raider status.
Ranks exist in the guild as a reward and incentive for high attendance and good play. After 2 weeks, a recruit can become a member. If they have high attendance and can play their class well, they are promoted to raider status.
The appropriate time to ask for loot is after a kill. Simple as that.
Thanks for confirming the basic facts of the story here.
Now look at what you just typed right there.... the member that was passed over wasn't a 'Recruit'. He was a 'Member'.
4. Loot. Loot is awarded to recruits only after no 'Member' or 'Raider' has asked for it. That said, you are welcome to ask for loot at appropriate times.
Your loot rules upon entry did not make a distinction between 'Member' or 'Raider' on your rules page in terms of rolling.
Anyone reading your recruitment page can rightfully assume that when it came to rolling that as long as they had achieved the rank of 'Member' they had a shot at non progression loot. Never was it stated according to your rules that 'Raiders' can override 'Member' in terms of loot rolls.
Taken from your website: http://trialanderror.guildlaunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=722666&gid=1073
8. Getting in. So, you managed not to anger too many people and you aren’t awful at what you do. Congratulations! You’re halfway there. You will be promoted to “member” status and given access to the remainder of the guild’s website. You have every privilege of calling yourself a Trial and Error member, however, you are not considered a “raider”. After two more weeks of membership, your attendance will be re-evaluated and you can be promoted to “raider” status. A raider is someone who maintains 75% or higher attendance over a 30 raid-day period. It requires at least four (4) weeks worth of attendance to qualify for this position. Once you reach the four-week time period, your rank is evaluated bi-weekly.
No where in that last rule, or any of the previous 8 rules, is it ever stated that Raiders have an override roll over Members.
Let me know when you re-edit your rules to reflect this because you seriously just screwed someone over, who, by your own rules did everything to the letter.
I know rare mounts can drive people crazy and they'll look for any way to keep it in the guild, it can happen to the best of us. I'm trying to find something in your literature of rules to support you guys and to shoot my self down, but really this whole situation looks really, really, bad.
(Heck, even I mess up in assigning loot to the appropriate people when running a raid, but have the decency to acknowledge that you may have screwed up according to your own written rules.)
BTW, incentives can only work when the person you're trying to get to raid feels that they have a fair shot when following your rules as written.
Edited by Visipac on 2/28/2012 1:59 AM PST
The person in question was not a raider rank, nor was he a member rank. Due to real life commitments, he was in the friends and family rank. He does raid us when he can, but he cannot maintain the required attendance.
Mounts, no different from any other raid drop, are covered by the loot council system. Since mounts are cosmetic items and of no value to progression, we choose to reward our raiders and let them have equal access to winning it. Effectively, this means mounts are open rolls to raiders and above and has been stated as such.
Again, do you read what you just typed in the previous post?!?!
You described your member in terms of not being a 'recruit', and not being a 'raider'. According to your rules on your own website, that would fall into the category of 'member'.
Nowhere on your rules page is it described that only those of 'Raider' rank can attain loot.
Now, you're revealing that you guys go 'Loot Council'. Funny, nowhere do you say that on
The site certainly doesn't give that impression. I suppose a person can interpret the rules that way if you twist things around, but that would be deceitful wouldn't it... The person who wrote the rules page must realize that your guild would get less recruits if you were fully honest with your rules.
It's now clear that you are spinning this to try to justify your lootmasters actions and that no changes to your stated rules are forthcoming. To discard a persons roll due to an interpretation of a vague self imposed unwritten/unsaid rule that not all parties are aware of is by definition 'Ninjaing'.
Was the 'non-raider' ranked toon ok with this setup or were they perplexed? Or did any of your officers even bother to check with them or whisper them? If they had prior knowledge to this rule you had, they wouldn't have rolled and thus a roll wouldn't had to be discarded.
Well, anyone reading this thread now has a clearer idea of how you guys act. I really hoped that you guys had something to respond with so I could've said 'My bad' and end it, but you guys pretty much confirmed my suspicions and anyone's else's suspicions about your guild.
Edited by Visipac on 2/28/2012 11:51 AM PST
In our guild, there are various ranks with privileges and responsibilities associated with them. These range from alt, to friends and family, member, raider, and officer. Belonging to the guild does not grant member or raider rank or privileges.
We have run loot council for a very long time. We make no secret of this, hence asking for and being awarding loot in section 4.
Mounts have dropped before. It has always been stated that only guild rank raiders and higher may roll on it. He just rolled before we finished saying "Roll for the mount-raider rank and above".
Oh dear gawd,
Right when I thought I was done with this thread, you keep adding details that makes the whole situation worse.
This is what you just typed and I quote "He just rolled before we finished saying "Roll for the mount-raider rank and above".".
It suggests that you guys just created the rule for that mount on the spot after it had already dropped. The person who was rolling had no idea of the rule. Worse yet, they do not even have a chance of knowing it since nowhere on the rules page or in Section (4) does it mention 'Loot Council', or 'only Raiders' having first dibs on loot.
Rule of thumb. You spell out the loot rules at the beginning of a Raid or before any loot drops, and not make up stuff in the middle or after the loot had already dropped. Heck, at the beginning of any new raid, you can link the rules page for any new player to check. Considering that you guys should've been raiding for a while, you should've fixed that stuff way in the past in both your runs and on your website.
It would only take a few minutes of time to edit that stuff on your website and then you'd have a leg to stand on. Right now, you guys are making a 'secret of it' by omission in section (4).
All you gotta put in for section (4) Loot is:
Loot. Loot is to be distributed by current Loot Council. (fill in the details)
and that would be the end of all the ambiguity.
Right now, your last statement of "Mounts have dropped before. It has always been stated that only guild rank raiders and higher may roll on it." doesn't match what is written on your websites own rules, making all of your statements from this point on suspicious to say the least.
Do yourself a favor and try to respond with something that doesn't put you in a deeper moral morass that you guys are already drowning in.
Edited by Visipac on 2/28/2012 3:46 PM PST
I haven't raided with Trial and Error, but was Alliance on Draenor for 5 years or so. Visi, you are either trolling or acting like a 5 year old who's ice cream was taken away. Their handling of this appropriately rewarded those in their raid and their answers to you have been more than acceptable. They did the right thing with the raider that they awarded it to. Also, im not sure if you used "Moral morass" correctly, because that would imply that this was a deep moral issue.
I would argue (right now in fact) that the fact that their loot rules are not 'transparent' inherently makes their handling of the loot inappropriate. What logical argument do you bring to say that this guilds handling of a mount drop was appropriate Texlaxsa?
If they had handled it correctly then, they would have responded that the person who was passed over the loot was 'ok' with the whole situation, or that their loot rules was transparent. So far none of their responses appears to be the case. All of the responses so far assumes that everyone knows the loot rules, but they reveal no details saying when the affected parties were given the loot rules or have no documentation for what those rules actually are.
Silence of an individual can not be assumed as consent since guilds are inherently castes setups, and there are no protections for anyone to be removed from the raids/guild with impunity other than being a well attending GM.
Lets suppose a person in the guild spoke up and disagreed with the officers?
What do you think would happen to that person? Heck, lets say an officer disagreed with the majority of officers decision. I've seen GMs kick said officer out of other guilds in the past. Anyone who isn't an officer would even have less incentive to make any waves.
Heck, it took about 2-3 posts to make them reveal that they use loot council for gosh sakes. Another 2 posts for them to reveal which ranks were denied access to rolls on mounts.
They may assume that the majority 24/25 members of the raid had knowledge or didn't need knowledge of the loot rules, but it was apparent that 1/25 people within their raid did not have access to the loot rules. The rules weren't clearly detailed during the raid or on their website or stated before the mount dropped. As it is now, their loot rules as stated is woefully inadequate. Even if the person did go to their website to confirm the reasoning of the decision that was made 'on the spot' they would gain no solace.
The whole point of this response in this 'Recruitment' Thread is to add transparency to the inner workings of said guild so that others who are thinking of applying have a better idea of joining said guild.
Edited by Visipac on 2/29/2012 5:45 PM PST
Week 1 of 10% raid nerfs sees the untimely deaths of General Zon'ozz and Ultraxion. May their infamy burn in twilight.
The hard nights of 1% wipes on the big purple dragon are now behind us.
Edited by Shizuka on 2/29/2012 10:52 PM PST
It's your right to call that out Sidohx, and its possible I've crossed that line at this point. But lets, be honest here, just about anything we do in this game is ultimately trivial. The few things that may actually last are ones own experiences with others as they play through this game and how we treat other players whether fairly or unfairly.
There's no need to go into the details since there's plenty already.
I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from posting any further in my recruitment thread. If you wish to discuss this topic further contact the officers directly or make a new thread on the subject, otherwise I will refer you to the forum Code of Conduct and its Trolling policy concerning derailing threads.
Our loot rules are and have been transparent to everyone in the guild. I have reposted our loot rules from the private section of our web site to the public forums. The rules for the mount were stated each time the mount dropped as a reminder, not because we didn't already have a policy.
If someone disagrees with an officer, they are perfectly free to speak up. In fact, this happens quite often. Heck, even our officers disagree with each other. We have never booted anyone for disagreeing with how we have handled loot.
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