Vengeance Cap is NOT 10% of Maximum Health

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90 Worgen Druid
12790
D:
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
Correct me if I'm wrong here and this has already been broached, but I remember when Vengeance was first raised it was going to be "unbuffed hp." I kinda assumed at the time that that would be pre-bear form HP, as Bear form is merely a buff, an important one, but a buff nonetheless.
85 Tauren Druid
5435
Yep I saw that and tested the numbers against that assumption too, but no, it definitely isn't scaling with unbuffed health.
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
01/10/2011 8:17 AMPosted by Tangedyn
Yep I saw that and tested the numbers against that assumption too, but no, it definitely isn't scaling with unbuffed health.


Yeah, like I said, wasn't sure, I just remember reading "Unbuffed Health" like 6 months ago and assuming in my head that it wouldn't include Blood Presence and Bear Form buffed health.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
You still haven't described how it's working for bears. Stop dancing around the issue, it's either going to be fixed or it isn't.
90 Night Elf Druid
14030
01/09/2011 7:14 AMPosted by Tangedyn
Full details here: http://theincbear.com/vengeance-cap-theorycraft/

It has been bugging some of us for the past couple of weeks that we are seeing our vengeance being capped at ~7.7-8.0% of Maximum Health rather than the expected 10%. After investigating this issue for the past couple of days with Reesi I've found the reason why this is happening. While Health is now (since 4.0.1) being calculated as 14x Stamina + Base Health, Vengeance seem to be using the old pre-Cataclysm stamina multiplier of 10x instead of 14x.

Hope this help the tank theorycrafters out there (or maybe not since Bears are the only tanks with DTPS scaling with Vengeance). My own spreadsheet at http://theincbear.com/vengeance-cap-theorycraft/ has been updated.


I can't help but feel this is intentional. Like to keep our dps from being that much higher than dpsers? Sad that it effects bears mitigation though.
Community Manager
Hey all, I'm hopping in to see if this will help you all a bit in understanding how this is meant to work. Hopefully it will clear up a little confusion.

The Vengeance calculation is working correctly as far as we can ascertain. Vengeance caps at a number equal to Stamina plus 10% of base health, which is lower than 10% of health. When we buffed Stamina late in Cataclysm development, we specifically did not buff Vengeance because we didn’t think tanks needed 40% additional attack power in order to maintain threat or contribute to damage done by the group. The Vengeance tooltip is a little misleading, but in this case we think that’s fine because a more technically accurate tooltip would be quite long. Astute theorycrafters will understand the difference, while most tanks won’t actually be affected by the delta.
85 Human Paladin
11980
Thanks for the clarification!
90 Worgen Druid
12790
That makes this bear Sadface, Neth, since our bearblock scales off AP and we're already starting to fall behind the static block of warriors and paladins in heroic hitting content (50k+ hits).

But, glad to see you guys are, in fact, paying attention to us. ;P
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
Good to have it cleared up. Hopefully with this explained Addon makers can change their Vengeance Cap numbers to more accurately reflect what Max Vengeance can actually be.

Just means our addons will have a more clear Definition of what 100% vengeance is.
Edited by Feranel on 1/10/2011 9:08 AM PST
85 Tauren Warrior
10510
Wow, a Neth post... in the tanking forums... Crazy!

Tell GC we said hi and we miss him, despite the constant complaining that seems to occur once he shows his pincers around here.
Community Manager
01/10/2011 9:10 AMPosted by Galvinias
Wow, a Neth post... in the tanking forums... Crazy!

Tell GC we said hi and we miss him, despite the constant complaining that seems to occur once he shows his pincers around here.


He's always watching. ;)
90 Worgen Druid
12790
01/10/2011 9:13 AMPosted by Nethaera
Wow, a Neth post... in the tanking forums... Crazy!

Tell GC we said hi and we miss him, despite the constant complaining that seems to occur once he shows his pincers around here.


He's always watching. ;)

Okay that's creepy.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
He speaks through his minions now.
85 Tauren Warrior
10510
01/10/2011 9:13 AMPosted by Nethaera
Wow, a Neth post... in the tanking forums... Crazy!

Tell GC we said hi and we miss him, despite the constant complaining that seems to occur once he shows his pincers around here.


He's always watching. ;)


So... what you are saying is he's always watching and he brings buffs to all the good little boys and girls and coal to all the naughty ones?

GC is Santa. Confirmed.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10675
01/10/2011 9:14 AMPosted by Charsi
He speaks through his minions now.


Now I want minions to do all my forum posting. /jealous.

Though I suppose on the list of "Things I want Minions to do for me," it's not all that high on the list.
62 Undead Rogue
580
01/10/2011 9:07 AMPosted by Reesi
That makes this bear Sadface, Neth, since our bearblock scales off AP and we're already starting to fall behind the static block of warriors and paladins in heroic hitting content (50k+ hits).

But, glad to see you guys are, in fact, paying attention to us. ;P


And it will only get worse.

What happened, you and Fasc were so adamant that bear mastery is not inferior to block?
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
RNG on top of RNG causing a single use shield blows. Who woulda thunk it?

85 Blood Elf Paladin
9565
Ooooookay, Big Brother :P.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
That makes this bear Sadface, Neth, since our bearblock scales off AP and we're already starting to fall behind the static block of warriors and paladins in heroic hitting content (50k+ hits).

But, glad to see you guys are, in fact, paying attention to us. ;P


And it will only get worse.

What happened, you and Fasc were so adamant that bear mastery is not inferior to block?

They were using the full value of vengeance and assumed stam would scale better in relation to boss hits. The problem is that vengeance is the druid block sampling system and there is a cap. If the cap is significantly high (it used to be for normal modes and the additional 40% would have made it so for heroics), it doesn't matter. However, that cap isn't as high as it needs to be in relationship to the incoming damage of heroics. They were using the data they had available.
Edited by Dosvidaniya on 1/10/2011 9:33 AM PST
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