Vengeance Cap is NOT 10% of Maximum Health

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100 Night Elf Druid
15325
01/10/2011 9:40 AMPosted by Etamalgren
The Vengeance calculation is working correctly as far as we can ascertain. Vengeance caps at a number equal to Stamina plus 10% of base health, which is lower than 10% of health.


If that's how it works, then why not change the tooltip from "Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage as AP up to a maximum of 10% of your health." to "Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage as AP up to a maximum of 10% of your base health plus stamina." It doesn't make the tooltip THAT much longer...


Except that outside of theory crafters no one really knows what Base Health means, but they do know what their Total Health is. If they do make a minor change to the tooltip, it should probably be to make it say 8% instead of 10%, but reality is I think they should make a major change to tell you what your actual cap currently is rather than making us do the math.

So 10K base health + 10K stamina would say "up to a maximum of 11K AP. This value is increased by your Stamina".

The confusion of using 10% of your health may be more prevalent at those looking at their gains from 81-84 as the Cata stamina modifier is actually linearly interpolated into, but since theory-craft rarely looks at non-level cap levels it probably isn't a big deal :).
85 Draenei Shaman
7335
01/10/2011 9:13 AMPosted by Nethaera
Wow, a Neth post... in the tanking forums... Crazy!

Tell GC we said hi and we miss him, despite the constant complaining that seems to occur once he shows his pincers around here.


He's always watching. ;)



Lets go watch the healing forum and give shamans some hope!
85 Night Elf Druid
8135
01/10/2011 10:08 AMPosted by Fasc

I also think it isn't exactly completely fair to consider the drop in power of SD of a Druid in full epic gear going from Normal Raid Boss to Heroic Raid Boss. A better comparison would be how the Druid performed against the Normal Raid Boss in 5man Heroic Blues to the Warrior in the same gear, and then again against the Heroic Raid Boss, but now the Druid and Warrior are in Normal Raid Epics. The Warrior will have the smoother transition but the Druid isn't going to suddenly fall over from ineffective SDs.


I'd like to see some numbers on this, but I don't think you're right. Sure, the Druid gets stronger SD shields from the gear upgrades, but the Warrior is scaling with his gear as well. Both tanks are scaling from gear, but the Warrior is also scaling from the harder hits.

Plus, you have the additional problem: During the critical phase of the fight, when the boss is doing more damage, SD is weak. There's no gear changes you can point to here.


That's an interesting thought. I think the current implementation is for Offensive Stats to be attractive to us as Defensive stats, though right now with Agility giving crit and dodge, I think that is acheived.

They could always make AP affect the Percentage blocked, (Like 1500 AP to 1% increase) and Mastery affect the scaling rate of AP to block Percentange.


There's no need for AP scaling anymore, since AP isn't a stat on gear. AGI already scales by giving us crit and dodge.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
A quick note:

The BiS Bear I posted in my spreadsheet that stacked heavily for Agility gets the following size of SD absorbs:

0%: 12507
25%: 15654
50%: 18800
75%: 21947
100%: 25093

On these Heroic Bosses that smash face at 50k+ and cap us out on Vengeance, for 30% to be the same as that 25k SD, the boss would have to hit us for 83643. Granted Critical Block does more, but a Warrior isn't Critically Blocking all the time.

I don't think, despite the static nature of the skill, that Druids will be in any sort of bad way going from this tier to the next.

As for the issue of "Balanced for max content, OP for not" consider this:

Nefarian, for all his damage and hard hitting-ness on Normal, does not keep me maxed at all times. As my stats improve further, I will spend even less time at the cap, and more time around 60-80%. Weaker Bosses will keep me even weaker. Druids won't get massive SDs on the more trivial bosses while still maintaining solid shields despite low Vengeance. Even at 25% of the above values, that's close to 30% of a 50k hit (a bit more in fact.)

I'll look at what our shields look like in just normal epic gear, not BiS Heroic loot to see what we're looking at going into Hardmodes. I bet we aren't that far off if we're even off at all.
85 Night Elf Druid
8135
01/10/2011 10:32 AMPosted by Fasc

On these Heroic Bosses that smash face at 50k+ and cap us out on Vengeance, for 30% to be the same as that 25k SD, the boss would have to hit us for 83643. Granted Critical Block does more, but a Warrior isn't Critically Blocking all the time.


Faulty logic.

You can't just consider the size of the shield/block, any more than you can compare DPS by looking at the size of the average hit. Comparisons are meaningless without looking at uptime as well.
62 Undead Rogue
580
A quick note:

I don't think, despite the static nature of the skill, that Druids will be in any sort of bad way going from this tier to the next.



LOL
Just admit you were wrong. Or show me a druid who was "stacked heavily for Agility" and doing hard modes.
Edited by Chakija on 1/10/2011 10:42 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
01/10/2011 10:41 AMPosted by Chakija
A quick note:

I don't think, despite the static nature of the skill, that Druids will be in any sort of bad way going from this tier to the next.



LOL
Just admit you were wrong. Or show me a druid who was "stacked heavily for Agility" and doing hard modes.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/reesi/simple

01/10/2011 10:40 AMPosted by Kalisti
Faulty logic.

You can't just consider the size of the shield/block, any more than you can compare DPS by looking at the size of the average hit. Comparisons are meaningless without looking at uptime as well.

Uptime gets way good as our gear increases? I'll admit I'm a little confused by this.
Edited by Arielle on 1/10/2011 10:45 AM PST
62 Undead Rogue
580
01/10/2011 10:43 AMPosted by Arielle

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/reesi/simple


mkk

the whole 2 heroic bosses

now this is how you should gem for heroic:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/advanced
85 Night Elf Druid
12205

On these Heroic Bosses that smash face at 50k+ and cap us out on Vengeance, for 30% to be the same as that 25k SD, the boss would have to hit us for 83643. Granted Critical Block does more, but a Warrior isn't Critically Blocking all the time.


Faulty logic.

You can't just consider the size of the shield/block, any more than you can compare DPS by looking at the size of the average hit. Comparisons are meaningless without looking at uptime as well.


Uptimes are very important, but our uptimes are exceptionally high.

I just put in all the normal mode versions of the gear I have for Heroic, with the exception of the Sinestra belt which I swapped to the one off Ascendant Council.

100% Vengeance SD = 22255
SD Uptime = 66.8705%
Avoidance = 44.3885% (after 1.2% depression counted in)

So that means that 37.1887% of incoming attacks will get mitigated by SD, and only 18.4238% will pass through unavoided and unmitigated, on average.

I'm not sure how that compares to an appropriately geared Warrior in all 359 gear but there you have it.

The Druid mitigates 83.17829% of all avoidable, blockable physical damage in this setup.

EDIT: Boss swings every 2.4 seconds after Infected Wounds for 150k before mitigation, or 60255 after Armor/Stance. IE a VERY hard hitting Heroic Boss.
Edited by Fasc on 1/10/2011 10:53 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 10:47 AMPosted by Chakija

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/reesi/simple


mkk

the whole 2 heroic bosses

now this is how you should gem for heroic:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/advanced


Heh you're really going to play this card? You're stretching really hard and not really bringing any real evidence to the table.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Alright chew on what I posted, for those that have numbers on Warriors and Paladins and such, and I'll be back after class.
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
Uptime gets way good as our gear increases? I'll admit I'm a little confused by this.


I think Kalisti was refering to the fact that we haven't modeled the differences in Uptime between Savage Defense and Block at concurrent gear levels.

Which is true, I belieive Fasc and others have been assuming that Dodge + Crit is causeing SD uptime to be relatively equal to Block Chance as affected by Mastery.

Edit: Ehhhh I posted late had to take a phone call, I'll take a look at uptime numbers now.
Edited by Feranel on 1/10/2011 10:59 AM PST
100 Orc Warrior
20250
01/10/2011 9:04 AMPosted by Nethaera
Hey all, I'm hopping in to see if this will help you all a bit in understanding how this is meant to work. Hopefully it will clear up a little confusion.

The Vengeance calculation is working correctly as far as we can ascertain. Vengeance caps at a number equal to Stamina plus 10% of base health, which is lower than 10% of health. When we buffed Stamina late in Cataclysm development, we specifically did not buff Vengeance because we didn’t think tanks needed 40% additional attack power in order to maintain threat or contribute to damage done by the group. The Vengeance tooltip is a little misleading, but in this case we think that’s fine because a more technically accurate tooltip would be quite long. Astute theorycrafters will understand the difference, while most tanks won’t actually be affected by the delta.


Understandable.

How about a tooltip that just says "increases your attack power up to <actual calculated number here> (based on stamina)." Or perhaps "increases your attack power up to <10% of base health> plus <stamina> (based on stamina)." In either case we get the detail we want and new players still understand that it's driven by your stamina.
62 Undead Rogue
580
01/10/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Fasc


mkk

the whole 2 heroic bosses

now this is how you should gem for heroic:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightnings-blade/sejta/advanced


Heh you're really going to play this card? You're stretching really hard and not really bringing any real evidence to the table.


Calculate SD using his gear and tell us how well it does vs block.
85 Night Elf Druid
8135
01/10/2011 10:58 AMPosted by Feranel
Uptime gets way good as our gear increases? I'll admit I'm a little confused by this.


I think Kalisti was refering to the fact that we haven't modeled the differences in Uptime between Savage Defense and Block at concurrent gear levels.

Which is true, I belieive Fasc and others have been assuming that Dodge + Crit is causeing SD uptime to be relatively equal to Block Chance as affected by Mastery.

Edit: Ehhhh I posted late had to take a phone call, I'll take a look at uptime numbers now.


Yup.

Also keep in mind: the comparison you're doing is the best case for Druids/worst case for block tanks. Because SD isn't on the combat table, if you give the boss a special attack or there are 2 or more mobs hitting on you, SD gets worse.
100 Dwarf Warrior
13430
01/10/2011 9:17 AMPosted by Galvinias
GC is Santa. Confirmed.

Not necessarily. Could be Sting.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10895
Nipples,Thats my reaction to that statement
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