Vengeance Cap is NOT 10% of Maximum Health

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85 Human Paladin
5555
Heh you're really going to play this card? You're stretching really hard and not really bringing any real evidence to the table.


Calculate SD using his gear and tell us how well it does vs block.

Why don't you do it yourself and tell us the results? Most people here will change their point of view based on available evidence. If you provide good evidence that everyone here is wrong, then we'll have to listen to you. If not, then you just seem to enjoy trolling and arguing.

Also, calculate that guy's SD uptime as compared to agility stacking as well as size of shield. Then try to figure out who (overall) takes more damage during a fight.
100 Night Elf Druid
15170
01/10/2011 10:50 AMPosted by Fasc
Uptimes are very important, but our uptimes are exceptionally high.

I just put in all the normal mode versions of the gear I have for Heroic, with the exception of the Sinestra belt which I swapped to the one off Ascendant Council.

100% Vengeance SD = 22255
SD Uptime = 66.8705%
Avoidance = 44.3885% (after 1.2% depression counted in)

So that means that 37.1887% of incoming attacks will get mitigated by SD, and only 18.4238% will pass through unavoided and unmitigated, on average.


Are our savage defense uptimes exceptionally high in practice, or in theory? Despite looking at the equations used in your spreadsheet and agreeing with the the implementation, I'm really not seeing it translate to actual encounters. Unfortunately, I've yet to find any good automatic way to parse savage defense uptime from logs - would have to script something that looks for savage defense aura fading combined with a recent hit that had a portion of it absorbed. That said, it's not terribly difficult to manually parse some fights with WoL for accurate small data set results, or to estimate savage defense uptime by taking the total amount absorbed and dividing by an 'average' savage defense value in order to get a guesstimate for number of savage defense absorbs.

For both small data sets as well as the more 'guesstimate' of a method, I'm typically seeing 30-40% of melee hits being absorbed by savage defense on a boss with the debuffed 1.8 swing timer that Bliz seems to like. That's actually why savage defense is actually somewhat balanced, seeing as how 40k hits at that speed + magic damage is enough to cap out vengeance and give 20k+ absorbs. But even at that kinda normal mode boss damage output, total 'mitigation' numbers end up pretty close compared to a paladin tank only because of the marked difference in avoidance - blocking 12k two thirds of the time is already slightly more effective than blocking 20k one third of the time (and that ignores the fact that savage defense absorb amounts are quite variable.)

Anyway, for now I only feel slightly more squishy than our paladin tank, which I don't mind all too much given that we each have different strengths. Bears have a marked advantage in avoidance, whereas paladins win out on more consistent damage. Heh, it reminds me so much of BC, especially since they essentially brought back crushing blows on every attack that's not blocked =P Oh, and yay for an actual explanation of the vengeance cap - it'd been bugging me for a few days now.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 11:09 AMPosted by Kalisti

Yup.

Also keep in mind: the comparison you're doing is the best case for Druids/worst case for block tanks. Because SD isn't on the combat table, if you give the boss a special attack or there are 2 or more mobs hitting on you, SD gets worse.


I think its a bit misleading to call it "worst case" for Warriors when almost all the encounters are exactly one Tank and one Boss beating on one another. Notable exceptions are OT Maloriak, OT Nefarian, West Wind Tank on Conclave, and Halfus. In ALL of these OT examples, I'd give the advantage to Warriors for their innate abilities like Shockwave, Piercing Howl (if specced), and Intimidating Shout before Block, given the nature of most of those fights and what you are doing with said adds. Halfus really is the only one I would look at most closely due to very likely Tanking the Boss and a drake or two drakes or more.

Also note that a vast majority of these Bosses have no specials that interact with the Masteries of any Tank, save taking damage to fuel Blood Shield. If they do have a special or two, they are generally magic of some sort or completely avoidable. I don't even think any of the dragons have Cleaves, at least not listed on WoW-Head and not that I remember getting hit by.

So while I understand your point, it is vastly a theoretical problem right now in this tier vs an actual problem. Furthermore, there is certainly no reason for a Boss to do anything really that special in terms of his direct Tank attacks in order to threaten said Tank. Nef literally autoattacks and breaths on you, that's it, but he can still tear you up given the rest of the fight mechanics.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 1:13 PMPosted by Kaetzchen

Are our savage defense uptimes exceptionally high in practice, or in theory? Despite looking at the equations used in your spreadsheet and agreeing with the the implementation, I'm really not seeing it translate to actual encounters. Unfortunately, I've yet to find any good automatic way to parse savage defense uptime from logs - would have to script something that looks for savage defense aura fading combined with a recent hit that had a portion of it absorbed. That said, it's not terribly difficult to manually parse some fights with WoL for accurate small data set results, or to estimate savage defense uptime by taking the total amount absorbed and dividing by an 'average' savage defense value in order to get a guesstimate for number of savage defense absorbs.

This is really tricky and hard to do because the combat log does not separate absorbs out for us, merely it lumps them all together and gives us a sum. We would have to parse each log for all AP buffs, current Vengeance levels, the stats of the Druid at the time, and note the uptime.

Of course the spreadsheet is in theory, it is based on averages. Even a very long fight by most raiders' standards will not produce enough events to produce a similar result to the spreadsheet consistently, such is the nature of RNG. But we all know that in the long term, gearing towards a general trend is best, while making sure you are capable of dealing with the absolute worst possible scenario, how often or not it occurs.


For both small data sets as well as the more 'guesstimate' of a method, I'm typically seeing 30-40% of melee hits being absorbed by savage defense on a boss with the debuffed 1.8 swing timer that Bliz seems to like. That's actually why savage defense is actually somewhat balanced, seeing as how 40k hits at that speed + magic damage is enough to cap out vengeance and give 20k+ absorbs. But even at that kinda normal mode boss damage output, total 'mitigation' numbers end up pretty close compared to a paladin tank only because of the marked difference in avoidance - blocking 12k two thirds of the time is already slightly more effective than blocking 20k one third of the time (and that ignores the fact that savage defense absorb amounts are quite variable.)

A 1.8 swing will have a very different effect on a Druid's SD uptime than a 2.4 swing. I can rerun the numbers easily with a varied swing to see how it works. It is also another reason perhaps why Block is 'superior' but I hesitate to use such a word since again, Mastery isn't the only thing we have going for us as Tanks to mitigate damage.

I'll probably do this when I do the Stam vs Agi comparison for the trolls.


Anyway, for now I only feel slightly more squishy than our paladin tank, which I don't mind all too much given that we each have different strengths. Bears have a marked advantage in avoidance, whereas paladins win out on more consistent damage. Heh, it reminds me so much of BC, especially since they essentially brought back crushing blows on every attack that's not blocked =P Oh, and yay for an actual explanation of the vengeance cap - it'd been bugging me for a few days now.

Our Avoidance certainly helps a lot, and that's fine. Our Stance modifier is also different from other Tanks. Our Armor is different as well.

I know that my Healers stick the WEAKER Healers with me on Nefarian when they are split between healing me while I tank Nef and healing our Warrior while he tanks Ony. We've swapped it up before the but the weaker ones always come with me because I'm the easier one to heal, and consistently, according to them. Obviously completely anecdotal but there you have it, I'm either getting really lucky or I'm doing something sorta right.
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
OT, what classes -are- you taking Fasc?

Are you just natrually good at this stuff or is it your focus?

I'm a Paralegal in the middle of a career shift to EMS, half the time the only thing I think I bring to the table is good diction and the ability to reason with different points of view.

I wish I was better at math and systems.
Edited by Feranel on 1/10/2011 1:37 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 1:36 PMPosted by Feranel
OT, what classes -are- you taking Fasc?

Are you just natrually good at this stuff or is it your focus?

I'm a Paralegal in the middle of a career shift to EMS, half the time the only thing I think I bring to the table is good diction and the ability to reason with different points of view.

I wish I was better at math and systems.


I actually was a bit vague huh? I meant I had to go TEACH my class, not take a class. I'm a Chemical Engineer and I like tinkering with numbers, so these sorts of discussions are fun, particularly when you need the math to line up with something practical in how you perform or behave, because that's a lot of what engineers do. Theories are great and all but unless they are accurate or usable when I need to use them, I can't really design a working plant based on them.

I teach HS students and I had to go take care of the 2nd part of my related rates lesson for AP-Calculus. Fun times!

You do very well in these discussions and you definitely don't need a ton of math and such to participate. I still feel very outclassed sometimes when people present these amazing scripts and programs that they just seem to whip up outta nowhere, my computer/coding knowledge is very lacking. Definitely appreciate the varying PoVs though! <3
90 Worgen Druid
12790
Fasc, check your in game mail when you can.
100 Night Elf Druid
11565
01/10/2011 1:16 PMPosted by Fasc

I think its a bit misleading to call it "worst case" for Warriors when almost all the encounters are exactly one Tank and one Boss beating on one another. Notable exceptions are OT Maloriak, OT Nefarian, West Wind Tank on Conclave, and Halfus. In ALL of these OT examples, I'd give the advantage to Warriors for their innate abilities like Shockwave, Piercing Howl (if specced), and Intimidating Shout before Block, given the nature of most of those fights and what you are doing with said adds. Halfus really is the only one I would look at most closely due to very likely Tanking the Boss and a drake or two drakes or more.


I think you've given enough examples to show that the problem is actual, not just theoretical. The fact that Warriors may also have an edge due to different toolboxes doesn't negate the SD/Block difference.

But what about the rest of the time? I'll accept that this is the more frequent occurance. There are 3 possibilities:

Block > SD
Block = SD
Block < SD

The first case means that Druids are simply gimped. Not a good option.

The second case means that Druids are usually balanced but sometimes weak. Not a good option either: choosing a Druid tank can't help you but might hurt you.

The third option means that were back to niches. The best option, but as you know the niche approach as issues, which is why they rejected it in the past.

This is the problem with SD. The best balance you can get is the niche system.
90 Orc Warrior
10025
But what about the rest of the time? I'll accept that this is the more frequent occurance. There are 3 possibilities:

Block > SD
Block = SD
Block < SD

The first case means that Druids are simply gimped. Not a good option.

The second case means that Druids are usually balanced but sometimes weak. Not a good option either: choosing a Druid tank can't help you but might hurt you.

The third option means that were back to niches. The best option, but as you know the niche approach as issues, which is why they rejected it in the past.


In nearly all situations, SD mitigates more damage than Block. Once again, for this to not be the case, the boss has to hit for something like 50K.

For all bosses in the first tier, SD is better. Even Nefarian hits for 40K approximately. I don't see what you're complaining about.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Okay so I took Sejta's Armory directly and put all his statistics and gear choices right into my spreadsheet. I went ahead and added in the LW only Bracer enchants and the JC only gems he used as well, as well as the Strength ring he's using.

For the Boss parameter, I left the raw damage at 150k and made the swing speed 1.5 base, or 1.8 debuffed.

I assumed he has all relevant buffs and is using the Agility food and a Flask of Steelskin, only because he seems dead set on stacking loads of Stamina. His stats are as follows assuming capped Vengeance:

Health: 225161
Armor: 38815
Avoidance: 37.91175%
Mastery: 20.5669
SD-Uptime: 59.2829%

SD-Mitigated Attacks: 36.8043%
Unmitigated Attacks: 25.2872%

Total Damage Reduction: 81.10332%

Now he is doing some odd things here and there like Reforging to additional Mastery instead of Dodge in a few places, and he has the Dodge/Mastery random enchant ring that is Strength based. Obviously he has some optimizing he could do within his own gear choices but we'll not quibble over that too much. What I'm going to do is change his gems, enchants, and trinkets to an Agility/Mitigation focus. I'll also correct his Reforging errors. All gear will remain the same aside from trinkets. Three Chimera's Eyes will be used for Delicate over Solid, but may not be in the same places due to optimization.

I assumed no reforging on his belt as you cannot see the stats, and I will leave that the same as well.

The trinkets I will choose are Essence of the Cyclone and Fluid Death, both normal versions.

Health: 181068
Armor: 38815
Avoidance: 42.9835%
Mastery: 20.3995
SD-Uptime: 65.7079%

SD-Mitigated Attacks: 37.4643%
Unmitigated Attacks: 19.5522%

Total Damage Reduction: 83.18281%

In both cases the Worst Case TTL is EXACTLY the same if you look at it in purely discrete chunks, with both Tanks being within the 4-shot range, or 5.4 seconds to react after the first hit lands to get the Tank SOME healing to keep them from dying, which is practically an eternity for any set of Healers worth their salt.
85 Human Warrior
11430
01/10/2011 1:46 PMPosted by Kalisti
as you know the niche approach as issues, which is why they rejected it in the past.


Do you really feel like they rejected it?

I mean, I think they rejected the sharply delineated 'niches'. The "this boss requires a DK tank, because DKs are magical-damage tanks and this boss does magical damage" niches. But it seems to me that they've indicated that they were fairly happy with how stuff like heroic-Halion and heroic-Lich King turned out.

And the fights Fasc is describing are basically in the mold of those two. The offtank deals with the smaller adds where stuns, snares, and the like are useful; the main tank(s) deal with the heavy-hitters.


Note that I'm not saying I'm happy about it (I'm not), but this sort of thing appears to be a feature and not a bug, in my opinion. If they wanted Savage Defense to confer all the advantages of blocking against multiple targets, they would've made it percentage-based and something on the combat table. Similarly, if they wanted warriors and bears to be equivalent on magical damage, warriors would have a Perseverance-style talent and Shield Block would look a lot more like Barkskin.

I think their tolerance for differences in effectiveness is simply a lot higher than most of the posters on this forum (me included) would really like it to be. It doesn't really matter to them that a warrior is a much better choice for offtanking on Maloriak or a bear is a much better choice for some of the heavy-magical-damage roles.
Edited by Ahti on 1/10/2011 2:08 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 1:46 PMPosted by Kalisti

I think you've given enough examples to show that the problem is actual, not just theoretical. The fact that Warriors may also have an edge due to different toolboxes doesn't negate the SD/Block difference.

Okay granted, but the problem lies in what you're doing with those adds. No Tank has any desire to just sit and beat on the adds on Nefarian, you are doing your best to hold aggro but also stay the hell away from them as well. Tools for kiting come into play here just as much as Block will. It doesn't dismiss the differences in the mechanics, but it greatly lessens the impact on this tier.


But what about the rest of the time? I'll accept that this is the more frequent occurance. There are 3 possibilities:

Block > SD
Block = SD
Block < SD

Okay.


The first case means that Druids are simply gimped. Not a good option.

Stopped here. Citation needed.

Where does it state exactly that SD needs to equal the mitigation output of Block/Critical Block for Druids to be on par with Warriors? If we consistently mitigated 5% less damage with our SD than they do with their Blocks, would we be automatically taking 5% more damage than them at all times?

This is what I was trying to get at earlier but I suppose I wasn't clear enough. The mechanics need not be equal at all for the classes to still be balanced against one another in the majority of encounters, particularly when the things that can highlight weaknesses, like multimob tanking, are generally NOT straight up stand there and Tank 15 mobs due to mechanics.


This is the problem with SD. The best balance you can get is the niche system.

I disagree completely.

SD is completely static and it is always a worry that it will have issues with scaling relative to mechanics that are percentile, but even in my own worry I would always put an "unless..." clause in there that allowed for scaling through multiple stats as we progressed from tier to tier assuming the Bosses didn't just exponentially jump up in the damage they deal.

So far that is STILL the case and we're mitigating a ton of damage via SD and our overall mechanics, and we'll continue to do so moving on into the next tier. Even with a heavy Stamina focus you still get a nice chunk of mitigation, but your uptime suffers and you do take more unabsorbed hits than you could manage with gear changes.

01/10/2011 1:44 PMPosted by Reesi
Fasc, check your in game mail when you can.


Will do.
Edited by Fasc on 1/10/2011 2:13 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
In both scenario's Fasc, how much is SD mitigating (assuming 100% Vengeance, I'm guessing?)

In both cases he has the same Mastery, but in the Agility case he would have more AP from Agility, while with the Stamina model the AP from Vengeance will be higher.

=/ Just wanted to know where that added up.
Edited by Feranel on 1/10/2011 2:14 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
01/10/2011 2:13 PMPosted by Feranel
In both scenario's Fasc, how much is SD mitigating (assuming 100% Vengeance, I'm guessing?)

In both cases he has the same Mastery, but in the Agility case he would have more AP from Agility, while with the Stamina model the AP from Vengeance will be higher.

=/ Just wanted to know where that added up.


Damnit I knew I forgot to list something...

Gimme a sec while I convert the gear back to its Stamina stacking state.

EDIT:
Stamina Stacked, 100% Vengeance SD Absorb: 24578.5028
Agility Stacked, 100% Vengeance SD Absorb: 24327.1651

Sejta actually gets slightly bigger shields with his bigger Stamina pool than Agi-Sejta would. (Bizarro Sejta?)

Base AP is much lower for Sejta than Agi-Sejta but because you are getting a point of AP for every point of Stamina at capped Vengeance before you account for multipliers, and he has a larger base Health than the rest of us being a fatty cow, the values are actually really close. However, because of the greatly diminished uptime, his overall damage reduction is less than Agi-Sejta.
Edited by Fasc on 1/10/2011 2:21 PM PST
90 Draenei Paladin
11855
01/10/2011 9:04 AMPosted by Nethaera
Hey all, I'm hopping in to see if this will help you all a bit in understanding how this is meant to work. Hopefully it will clear up a little confusion.

The Vengeance calculation is working correctly as far as we can ascertain. Vengeance caps at a number equal to Stamina plus 10% of base health, which is lower than 10% of health. When we buffed Stamina late in Cataclysm development, we specifically did not buff Vengeance because we didn’t think tanks needed 40% additional attack power in order to maintain threat or contribute to damage done by the group. The Vengeance tooltip is a little misleading, but in this case we think that’s fine because a more technically accurate tooltip would be quite long. Astute theorycrafters will understand the difference, while most tanks won’t actually be affected by the delta.


The tooltip is:
Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

That is nothing like what you've explained.

How is

"Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of stamina plus 10% of base health."

any worse?

Annoying.
100 Night Elf Druid
15170
01/10/2011 1:24 PMPosted by Fasc
This is really tricky and hard to do because the combat log does not separate absorbs out for us, merely it lumps them all together and gives us a sum. We would have to parse each log for all AP buffs, current Vengeance levels, the stats of the Druid at the time, and note the uptime.

Of course the spreadsheet is in theory, it is based on averages. Even a very long fight by most raiders' standards will not produce enough events to produce a similar result to the spreadsheet consistently, such is the nature of RNG. But we all know that in the long term, gearing towards a general trend is best, while making sure you are capable of dealing with the absolute worst possible scenario, how often or not it occurs.


Yeah, determining the actual amount absorbed by savage defense is mildly annoying. The only bright side being that it actually does report values for most other absorbs when their aura is applied, so it's not that bad, just time consuming and annoying to script. Hence why for determining an estimate of the number of hits with a savage defense absorb I simply went with total amount absorbed divided by 20k. Average savage defense absorb should be a bit lower than that, which allows for all the other absorb sources.

That said, I guess I was getting a bit unlucky on the first night that I was looking at damage on, as across the entire night of boss fights it was around 35% of hits had savage defense up. Whereas looking at other nights as well as some other logs shows numbers around 50%, which is more in line with expectations even if still a few percent.

01/10/2011 1:24 PMPosted by Fasc
A 1.8 swing will have a very different effect on a Druid's SD uptime than a 2.4 swing. I can rerun the numbers easily with a varied swing to see how it works. It is also another reason perhaps why Block is 'superior' but I hesitate to use such a word since again, Mastery isn't the only thing we have going for us as Tanks to mitigate damage.


Yeah, I'd actually checked the values given by the spreadsheet with my gear at both the 1.5 second base swing and 2 second (sadly Bliz certainly seems to be favoring a 1.5 second swing timers for a lot of fights.) As said, that dropped the expected down to where it pretty much matched actual data... which also brings the uptime down from what I'd call "exceptionally high" =P


01/10/2011 1:24 PMPosted by Fasc
Our Avoidance certainly helps a lot, and that's fine. Our Stance modifier is also different from other Tanks. Our Armor is different as well.

I know that my Healers stick the WEAKER Healers with me on Nefarian when they are split between healing me while I tank Nef and healing our Warrior while he tanks Ony. We've swapped it up before the but the weaker ones always come with me because I'm the easier one to heal, and consistently, according to them. Obviously completely anecdotal but there you have it, I'm either getting really lucky or I'm doing something sorta right.


Whereas I tend to see the opposite with a paladin tank when we're comparably geared at current. As for armor and stance modifier - we're definitely lower on armor, but that's mostly made up for on the stance modifier. It actually looks like in BiS gear and fully buffed, we'll be a bit ahead of the shield tanks though.
100 Night Elf Druid
11565
01/10/2011 2:11 PMPosted by Fasc

Okay granted, but the problem lies in what you're doing with those adds. No Tank has any desire to just sit and beat on the adds on Nefarian, you are doing your best to hold aggro but also stay the hell away from them as well. Tools for kiting come into play here just as much as Block will. It doesn't dismiss the differences in the mechanics, but it greatly lessens the impact on this tier.


I'm not sure that it lessons the impact. Rather, it compounds the problem.

Suppose the only difference is the toolbox. Then having a bear doing it isn't optimal, but it's not too bad.

But with both the toolbox deficiency and the SD weakness, bringing the Bear is a really bad choice.



The first case means that Druids are simply gimped. Not a good option.

Stopped here. Citation needed.

Where does it state exactly that SD needs to equal the mitigation output of Block/Critical Block for Druids to be on par with Warriors? If we consistently mitigated 5% less damage with our SD than they do with their Blocks, would we be automatically taking 5% more damage than them at all times?


It doesn't have to.

Choose whatever calibration point you want. If SD has to soak 10% more, 10% less, or even 100% more or less, that's the standard for equality.

My point is that it doesn't matter what calibration point you choose. Given how they scale differently, you'll always run into the tank-X-is-somtimes-worse-and-never-better scenario or the niche scnario.
Edited by Kalisti on 1/10/2011 2:30 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
01/10/2011 2:14 PMPosted by Fasc
Damnit I knew I forgot to list something...

Gimme a sec while I convert the gear back to its Stamina stacking state.

EDIT:
Stamina Stacked, 100% Vengeance SD Absorb: 24578.5028
Agility Stacked, 100% Vengeance SD Absorb: 24327.1651

Sejta actually gets slightly bigger shields with his bigger Stamina pool than Agi-Sejta would. (Bizarro Sejta?)

Base AP is much lower for Sejta than Agi-Sejta but because you are getting a point of AP for every point of Stamina at capped Vengeance before you account for multipliers, and he has a larger base Health than the rest of us being a fatty cow, the values are actually really close. However, because of the greatly diminished uptime, his overall damage reduction is less than Agi-Sejta.


I had half expected Stamina-Sejta to have vastly superior SD shields for some reason, I'm surprised that the difference is only 717 AP over with 100% Vengeance, and obviously weaker with lower to no Vengeance.
Edited by Feranel on 1/10/2011 2:38 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I'm okay with that flip-flop Kalisti, and Blizzard is probably even more OK with it too.

If Druids are 1-2% ahead on some fights, and 1-2% behind on others, I highly HIGHLY doubt that will make for any sort of meaningful impact at all. We aren't exactly talking swings of 10% here.

@Reesi

Got your message thanks. <3
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
My point is that it doesn't matter what calibration point you choose. Given how they scale differently, you'll always run into the tank-X-is-somtimes-worse-and-never-better scenario or the niche scnario.

Shooting for 100% parity through different mechanics is an optimistic goal but not nearly a realistic one.

If the damage taken is within an acceptable variance (and it appears thus far that it is), then it is quite possible that making additional changes to shrink the variance more is very realistically likely to make the problem worse, not better.

The only way you will ever have 100% parity is to make everyone use exactly the same mechanics.
Edited by Arielle on 1/10/2011 2:44 PM PST
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