Clearly Feral was OP (numbers)

85 Tauren Druid
2270
THIS WEEKS LIST

1. Resto Shaman - 58
2. Affliction lock - 52
3. Frost Mage - 49
4. Holy Pally - 34
5. Shadow Priest - 30
5. Unholy DK - 30
7. Resto Druid - 24
8. Arms Warrior - 18
9. Enhance Shaman - 17
9. Sub Rogue - 17
9. Ass. Rogue - 17
12. Feral Druid - 8
13. Surv. Hunter - 5
14. Demo lock - 4
15. Destro lock - 3
15. Disc. Priest - 3
15. Boomkin - 3
18. Fire Mage - 2
18. Frost DK - 2
20. Elemental Shaman - 1
20. Holy Priest - 1
20. Arcane Mage - 1


Top 20 teams: 3v3




Bloodlust:

R. Shaman: 11
E. Shaman: 0
Warlock:8
R. Druid : 2
F. Druid : 1
Paladin:6
Rogue:4
Mage:9
DK:9
s.Priest:4
Warrior :2
Hunter:1

Cyclone:

R. Shaman: 13
E. Shaman: 1
Warlock:5
R. Druid : 1
F. Druid : 3
Paladin:9
Rogue:4
Mage:6
DK:3
s.Priest:0
Warrior :7
Hunter:0

Ruin:

R. Shaman:9
E. Shaman:2
Warlock:10
R. Druid : 5
F. Druid : 3
Paladin:5
Rogue:4
Mage:4
DK:5
s.Priest:1
Warrior :7
Hunter:0

Reckoning:

R. Shaman:10
E. Shaman:5
Warlock:9
R. Druid : 2
F. Druid : 1
Paladin:5
Rogue:3
Mage:9
DK:6
s.Priest:4
d.priest:2
Warrior :4
Hunter:0


Stormstrike:

R. Shaman:10
E. Shaman:3
Warlock:12
R. Druid : 5
F. Druid : 2
Paladin:5
Rogue:5
Mage:8
DK:2
s.Priest:3
d.priest:0
Warrior :9
Hunter:0


Parse Script [Parsing 20000 arena teams in 3v3 over 2000]

R. Shaman:
E. Shaman:
Warlock:
R. Druid :
F. Druid :
Paladin:
R.Paladin:
Rogue:
Mage:
DK:
S.Priest:
D.Priest:
Warrior:
Hunter:



Glad no one at Blizzard has any idea of what the are doing.
Edited by Covaz on 1/17/2011 12:37 AM PST
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Cue the frost mages and aff locks to come and make a lot of hand-waving arguments about why arena representation doesn't mean anything, nothing to see here, move along and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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85 Tauren Druid
3555
Put it on the pointer, and on the pvp forums. Goodness knows our devs are either completely clueless or don't get off their mages long enough to understand this class.

Please stop saying things are OP without backup of data.

I play balance druid and am tired of hearing about how OP Druids are in PVP, lmao. I'm GLAD to see some representation by feral dps in arena it is where it SHOULD be.

The only thing that is wrong is that other classes aren't used to seeing Druid dps even doing decently in arena and come and qq in shock.
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I hope the devs get hard countered in the nuts.


fixed
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85 Tauren Druid
3555
01/17/2011 12:27 AMPosted by Thunderhorne
Wait, what the hell. There are three MOONKINS on that list. Those brave, noble souls. How are they doing it?


Casters usually do better at the beginning of the season and melee at the end. Enjoy seeing any moonkins at all on the list while you can.

Expect them to drop off as time goes on, sooner rather than later now they they are also losing a lot of what little cc and control and escape they had with the roots/shapeshifing/naturesgraps nerfs.

Yes some buffs to damage coming but they can't buff damage much without PVE getting out of balance so I think the survivability nerfs will dominate eventually.
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85 Tauren Druid
3555
Wait, what the hell. There are three MOONKINS on that list. Those brave, noble souls. How are they doing it?


Casters usually do better at the beginning of the season and melee at the end. Enjoy seeing any moonkins at all on the list while you can.

Expect them to drop off as time goes on, sooner rather than later now they they are also losing a lot of what little cc and control and escape they had with the roots/shapeshifing/naturesgraps nerfs.

Yes some buffs to damage coming but they can't buff damage much without PVE getting out of balance so I think the survivability nerfs will dominate eventually.


NOTE: I should say dps casters (healers do great as the season goes on, rmore resilience favors them).
Edited by Tigwig on 1/20/2011 2:51 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4115
If you had taken a basic statistics/data managment course, you would have realized your data failed to address one very important thing:

Class representation

Assuming all these classes were equally represented, then yes your data would make sense. However, this is not a perfect world, and class balance equally will never happen.

Also you only mentioned 3v3. What about 2v2, I'd argue that an OP class has more of an effect there, than 3v3 where it's more about team-play and not solo-OPness..

Whether you intended to have this bias overlooked or not, it's a big flaw in your attempt to make it seem like feral's bleeds were not OP

Another thing, who says the game should cater to the "elite" (or at least 1800+, which isn't as easy as some think), and the casuals should get screwed? Good players are good regardless of buffs/nerfs. Look at Reckful/Woundman. Rogues are in a pretty bad spot atm, especially subtlety, yet Reckful's 3s team is still #1, and Woundman's was #3 last time I checked...
Are rogues OP, by your standards? Or more specific, subtlety rogues?

Interesting though, thanks for taking the time to share this, it does pose some interesting questions, but still I'm not convinced, that just because there wasn't as many 1800 ferals as resto shamans, that they're automatically not overpowered.
Edited by Syronas on 1/17/2011 12:52 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
2270
01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
If you had taken a basic statistics/data managment course, you would have realized your data failed to address one very important thing:

Class representation

Assuming all these classes were equally represented, then yes your data would make sense. However, this is not a perfect world, and class balance equally will never happen.

Also you only mentioned 3v3. What about 2v2, I'd argue that an OP class has more of an effect there, than 3v3 where it's more about team-play and not solo-OPness..

Whether you intended to have this bias overlooked or not, it's a big flaw in your attempt to make it seem like feral's bleeds were not OP

Another thing, who says the game should cater to the "elite" (or at least 1800+, which isn't as easy as some think), and the casuals should get screwed? Good players are good regardless of buffs/nerfs. Look at Reckful/Woundman. Rogues are in a pretty bad spot atm, especially subtlety, yet Reckful's 3s team is still #1, and Woundman's was #3 last time I checked...
Are rogues OP, by your standards? Or more specific, subtlety rogues?

Interesting though, thanks for taking the time to share this, it does pose some interesting questions, but still I'm not convinced, that just because there wasn't as many 1800 ferals as resto shamans, that they're automatically not overpowered.



You do know that druids are the 2nd most played class in the game?
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85 Orc Death Knight
9775
01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
If you had taken a basic statistics/data managment course, you would have realized your data failed to address one very important thing:

Class representation

Assuming all these classes were equally represented, then yes your data would make sense. However, this is not a perfect world, and class balance equally will never happen.


Except the OP isn't analyzing the numbers of 5,000,000 shareholders.

Do certain Countries get handicaps in the Olympic games because they have a smaller population, or are they brought on to compete fairly, given their athletes pass prelims?

Knowing your data and knowing how to interpret it are two very different things. Amusingly enough, that's another (primary) thing you'd have learned if you'd taken this basic data class you're touting.
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01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
Are rogues OP, by your standards? Or more specific, subtlety rogues?


Compared to feral druids, yes, they are. Rogues have always had so many PvP tools that ferals lack, such as blind, vanish, sap, etc. Those are key abilities in arena. There's a reason why the classic 3v3 comp is RMP and not DMP.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4115
Proof?
And even if that's true, you're posting battlegroup specific, not overall, so you'd need to post for every realm within that group, or overall per battlegroup if that's attainable.

And even if THAT'S still correct, the point I'm trying to make is you can't just judge OH there's a bunch of classes above 1800, they must be OP, or vice-versa...

You're not taking into account the skill of each player (how to tell if their class is OP, or if they're just good), or even the amount of people who actually PVP.

Rogues are often seen as a pvp-class, and many people roll them for this sole purpose. I'd argue that more rogues play rogues for pvp than druids play druids for pvp, so exactly what % of the druid population pvps?
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4115
01/17/2011 1:03 AMPosted by Cirocco
Are rogues OP, by your standards? Or more specific, subtlety rogues?


Compared to feral druids, yes, they are. Rogues have always had so many PvP tools that ferals lack, such as blind, vanish, sap, etc. Those are key abilities in arena. There's a reason why the classic 3v3 comp is RMP and not DMP.


Do we really have to go through this argument again? Stating that we have different abilities than you guys doesn't mean that you have nothing. Currently you're pretty much unable to be cc'ed other than: blind, cyclone, fear when zerk is down, scare beast, and hibernate
2 of those abilities come from your own class, you're claiming has less pvp tools than rogues, making the cc thing a fail argument.

I could get into the whole potentially instant cyclones/instant roots, but I'm not going to. Ferals and rogues are not the same. To say that we have superior pvp abilities is a rather daunting task to prove..And the reason the classic 3v3 comp is RMP is because prior to this ferals were pretty underpowered, and in need of buffs, while rogues were still able lock down a healer/caster via cheapshot/kidney shots, better than a feral. That was in wrath. It's early cata, cs/ks DRs are the same, everyone's testing out new comps, or trying old ones, so a new one with ferals might arise. With this next patch though I doubt it, sometimes it's nice to be ignored rather than nerfed haha.
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01/17/2011 1:05 AMPosted by Syronas
I'd argue that more rogues play rogues for pvp than druids play druids for pvp


Yes, because rogues are better at PvP than feral druids. It's not like a bunch of PvPers just happened to roll rogues.

Ferals and rogues are not the same. To say that we have superior pvp abilities is a rather daunting task to prove


No, it's a very easy task to prove. All you have to do is compare the PvP success (read: arena rankings) of rogues and feral druids. All the hand-waving in the world isn't going to make the numbers go away.

Just consider yourself lucky that Blizzard hands out nerfs based on their airy, abstract ideas of balance rather than empirical facts. It's like an engineer referring to a schematic when he's got the actual circuit right in front of him.
Edited by Cirocco on 1/17/2011 1:19 AM PST
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52 Human Mage
450
01/17/2011 1:14 AMPosted by Syronas


Compared to feral druids, yes, they are. Rogues have always had so many PvP tools that ferals lack, such as blind, vanish, sap, etc. Those are key abilities in arena. There's a reason why the classic 3v3 comp is RMP and not DMP.


Do we really have to go through this argument again? Stating that we have different abilities than you guys doesn't mean that you have nothing. Currently you're pretty much unable to be cc'ed other than: blind, cyclone, fear when zerk is down, scare beast, and hibernate
2 of those abilities come from your own class, you're claiming has less pvp tools than rogues, making the cc thing a fail argument.

I could get into the whole potentially instant cyclones/instant roots, but I'm not going to. Ferals and rogues are not the same. To say that we have superior pvp abilities is a rather daunting task to prove..And the reason the classic 3v3 comp is RMP is because prior to this ferals were pretty underpowered, and in need of buffs, while rogues were still able lock down a healer/caster via cheapshot/kidney shots, better than a feral. That was in wrath. It's early cata, cs/ks DRs are the same, everyone's testing out new comps, or trying old ones, so a new one with ferals might arise. With this next patch though I doubt it, sometimes it's nice to be ignored rather than nerfed haha.


/facepalm
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85 Tauren Druid
7490
One way to fix it this is no stun or root over 3 seconds with diminishing returns of a second each time its cast, then have it reset on the fourth. As for balance, this game will never be balanced, ever or it would have, but what will happen with peoples constant complaining is that blizz will move it even more toward homogenized classes. Which is the question they have to ask is this a pvp game or dungeon, raid mmo, cause at some point one will start to suffer drastically as this HYBRID version dosent work so well, you can't have diffrent unique toons and expect balance, some classes will always have an advantage over others in a given situation.
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10 Tauren Warrior
40
Homogenized classes - mmmm world of clone-craft. Now doesn't that sound fun?

In fact - get rid of gear too. The only thing you need is your level - providing the same HP, energy, AP, SP etc.

Perfect balance - except for those with sub 50 ping vs those with 400+.
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01/17/2011 12:22 AMPosted by Pavidus

I hope the devs get kicked in the nuts.


Doesnt that require nuts to begin with?
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