Clearly Feral was OP (numbers)

01/17/2011 1:14 AMPosted by Syronas


Compared to feral druids, yes, they are. Rogues have always had so many PvP tools that ferals lack, such as blind, vanish, sap, etc. Those are key abilities in arena. There's a reason why the classic 3v3 comp is RMP and not DMP.


Do we really have to go through this argument again? Stating that we have different abilities than you guys doesn't mean that you have nothing. Currently you're pretty much unable to be cc'ed other than: blind, cyclone, fear when zerk is down, scare beast, and hibernate
2 of those abilities come from your own class, you're claiming has less pvp tools than rogues, making the cc thing a fail argument.

I could get into the whole potentially instant cyclones/instant roots, but I'm not going to. Ferals and rogues are not the same. To say that we have superior pvp abilities is a rather daunting task to prove..And the reason the classic 3v3 comp is RMP is because prior to this ferals were pretty underpowered, and in need of buffs, while rogues were still able lock down a healer/caster via cheapshot/kidney shots, better than a feral. That was in wrath. It's early cata, cs/ks DRs are the same, everyone's testing out new comps, or trying old ones, so a new one with ferals might arise. With this next patch though I doubt it, sometimes it's nice to be ignored rather than nerfed haha.


in a reply to that, you have so many more cooldowns to manage than druids, currently in feral, we have 1 stun opener - pounce and maim - now main is pretty much pointless without 5cp and even then its only 5 seconds my friend... and in the real scheme of things isnt along time, and with DR its not even worth putting up sometimes unless its to completely lock down a class or lock down a healer, but after 5 seconds we dont have anything bar our cyclone - if its not instant requires a cast time, which requires us to be beat on a little for us to cast, and roots, your points are invalid..
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90 Draenei Shaman
10460
Wait, what the hell. There are three MOONKINS on that list. Those brave, noble souls. How are they doing it?


Casters usually do better at the beginning of the season and melee at the end. Enjoy seeing any moonkins at all on the list while you can.

Expect them to drop off as time goes on, sooner rather than later now they they are also losing a lot of what little cc and control and escape they had with the roots/shapeshifing/naturesgraps nerfs.

Yes some buffs to damage coming but they can't buff damage much without PVE getting out of balance so I think the survivability nerfs will dominate eventually.


Moonkin are already out-dated.

My team fighting a moonkin in arena:

"Alright guys we got a shadow priest, who's not in shadow form for some reason... an unholy DK and a resto druid."

"Ok I guess we'll go hard on the DK, try to CC the druid before he pops tree and see if we can get a kill."

"OMFG THE PRIEST IS DISC AND THE DRUID'S A BOOMKIN KILL EEEEEEEEEEEET."
(5s passes)
Druid has died.
(30s passes)
Rating change: +10
Edited by Asuul on 1/17/2011 4:49 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
7490
Im not for hemogenized classes, but im telling you that's where its heading. This game can't be balanced, at least not from where they want people to be able to form a team and compete, only certain combos really work well.
There are alot of good ideas, that have come about from this, will any get looked at probably, will any get implemented, probably not.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9265
To the OP, nice stats you've got there. Hopefully a Dev will see it and realise that their irrational over reaction to a problem that never existed gets dumped.

But, as many have stated, it probably wont. And it will lead to more and more class nerfs, until there are no differant classes, just differant skins.
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85 Tauren Druid
3910
01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
If you had taken a basic statistics/data managment course, you would have realized your data failed to address one very important thing:

Class representation

Assuming all these classes were equally represented, then yes your data would make sense. However, this is not a perfect world, and class balance equally will never happen.

Also you only mentioned 3v3. What about 2v2, I'd argue that an OP class has more of an effect there, than 3v3 where it's more about team-play and not solo-OPness..

Whether you intended to have this bias overlooked or not, it's a big flaw in your attempt to make it seem like feral's bleeds were not OP

Another thing, who says the game should cater to the "elite" (or at least 1800+, which isn't as easy as some think), and the casuals should get screwed? Good players are good regardless of buffs/nerfs. Look at Reckful/Woundman. Rogues are in a pretty bad spot atm, especially subtlety, yet Reckful's 3s team is still #1, and Woundman's was #3 last time I checked...
Are rogues OP, by your standards? Or more specific, subtlety rogues?

Interesting though, thanks for taking the time to share this, it does pose some interesting questions, but still I'm not convinced, that just because there wasn't as many 1800 ferals as resto shamans, that they're automatically not overpowered.


^This. Pulling up numbers that clearly were not equal to begin with is stupid.

It's like me saying "feral druids just dont play arena", because out of all of my arena games, i have yet to come across a feral druid. Which would be absurd of me to say.

That aside, it still doesnt change the fact that in BG's (with me running 3.4k resil), that your dots eat through what i can heal. And this isnt even with stuns/cc/or healing debuffs. I'm thankful that i havent come across feral druids in bg's because it would be a slaughter.

You deserve a nerf. You need a nerf. I think them nerfing your berserk is retarted. They just needed to greatly decrease the damage your dots do.

Btw, no other class in game can eat through me like feral druids can. Not even close.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3060
Feral druids are overpowered, however much you do or don't want to believe it.
Virtually unpeelable and probably the second highest damage(under warriors) in addition to a pummel were never meant to go with each other.
The same for shaman having dispel and tremor which is why that is also getting fixed.
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85 Tauren Druid
4115
01/17/2011 1:15 AMPosted by Cirocco
I'd argue that more rogues play rogues for pvp than druids play druids for pvp


Yes, because rogues are better at PvP than feral druids. It's not like a bunch of PvPers just happened to roll rogues.

Ferals and rogues are not the same. To say that we have superior pvp abilities is a rather daunting task to prove


No, it's a very easy task to prove. All you have to do is compare the PvP success (read: arena rankings) of rogues and feral druids. All the hand-waving in the world isn't going to make the numbers go away.

Just consider yourself lucky that Blizzard hands out nerfs based on their airy, abstract ideas of balance rather than empirical facts. It's like an engineer referring to a schematic when he's got the actual circuit right in front of him.


For a class that whines as much as it does about how powerful feral druids are (going on 5 years of whining), its amazing how people still play, enjoy, and succeed with rogues isn't it?
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85 Night Elf Druid
2025
01/17/2011 1:05 AMPosted by Syronas
And even if THAT'S still correct, the point I'm trying to make is you can't just judge OH there's a bunch of classes above 1800, they must be OP, or vice-versa...

You're not taking into account the skill of each player (how to tell if their class is OP, or if they're just good), or even the amount of people who actually PVP.


I don't think this point supports the argument you're trying to make. If you begin from the fact that there is such low feral representation period, then say we should consider that there are some exceptional player-skill levels that need to be considered, the only logical thing to conclude is that probably those few ferals are ridiculously talented players and that the average feral player really doesn't have a chance to be this competitive in that level of arena.

If other classes have much better representation, it at least suggests (if falling short of proves) that the class is less pvp viable than the more represented ones.

So while, yes, there is a potentially incomplete picture here, there are still logical observations we can make.

EDIT: I just re-read my post. I was just talking about your logic. I don't really think ferals are non pvp viable before the nerfs. The nerfs are going to hurt, and I'm pissed about them, and I'm not sure where we'll be after, but I don't think we'll be near the power level we now reside.

Our mobility, cc-resilience, and ridiculous bleeds in concert were way, way strong. I'm fine taking a hit to the bleeds. But to hit us on all three fronts at once - one of those being a fundamental keystone that makes the calss what it is (the root-breaking thing)... that's just wrong.
Edited by Shyfft on 1/17/2011 6:11 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
4115
01/17/2011 6:03 AMPosted by Shyfft
And even if THAT'S still correct, the point I'm trying to make is you can't just judge OH there's a bunch of classes above 1800, they must be OP, or vice-versa...

You're not taking into account the skill of each player (how to tell if their class is OP, or if they're just good), or even the amount of people who actually PVP.


I don't think this point supports the argument you're trying to make. If you begin from the fact that there is such low feral representation period, then say we should consider that there are some exceptional player-skill levels that need to be considered, the only logical thing to conclude is that probably those few ferals are ridiculously talented players and that the average feral player really doesn't have a chance to be this competitive in that level of arena.

If other classes have much better representation, it at least suggests (if falling short of proves) that the class is less pvp viable than the more represented ones.

So while, yes, there is a potentially incomplete picture here, there are still logical observations we can make.


No, see, there is an imaginary third variable where more scrubs choose feral, therefore the ferals that do well are scrubs, right? So we need to be nerfed coming and going: dps, healing, cc, cc-breaking, everything!

And the over-represented people are only a teeny tiny bit over the top. The reason THEY are overrepresented is because skilled people naturally edged toward those classes for an unexplainable reason, therefore their success is due to skill.

It makes perfect sense.
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01/17/2011 5:05 AMPosted by Lilbunnyfufu
You deserve a nerf. You need a nerf. I think them nerfing your berserk is retarted. They just needed to greatly decrease the damage your dots do.

Btw, no other class in game can eat through me like feral druids can. Not even close.


Then you somehow haven't run across a half-competent mage or warrior yet, because they pull higher DPS than ferals do, right now, on live.

My PvE-geared, PvE-specced, ilvl 345 mage does more damage in Tol Barad than my druid. Those 5 CP, TF+trinket-boosted Rip crits are indeed awesome... on ONE target, with a long ramp-up time and blowing all our resources. Good players in arenas & BGs don't let us do that, or stop it afterward with various defensive cooldowns. Post-nerf, any mage who can find his Frost Nova key or any warlock/hunter/priest/warrior who can find his fear key can completely stop us from doing it.

Again, the numbers don't lie. The fact that you, personally, have a hard time coping with feral druids is just anecdotal.
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85 Tauren Druid
3845
By the Way to the Sub Rogue that Clearly needs to

Get out of our forums if you dont know what were are talking about Druid burst is a little high and our bleeds are alittle Op all things blizzard is nerfing and Good but we are complaining mostly about them removing the Core mechanic in the Druid class shifting out of roots , we dont have things like Cloak, Vanish, Spell reflect , second wind, Anti magic zone, or Anti magic shield. So we will have to be babysat by a healer getting dispelled over and over and over again. We dont have the Utility of a rogue or the Survival of a Warrior/DK , So like you said in 3v3 where its more about team work not Op classes we will only hurt our team to the point were getting above 1.8k rated even for Feral Glad.'s will be Very hard to do.
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85 Orc Death Knight
9775
01/17/2011 8:00 AMPosted by Daedae
As a Frost DK I have no sympathy for you.

Also, representation for an Arena season only a month in is generally not a good indication of long-term representation.

With that said, my class, and especially my spec has been the lowest represented in Arenas since s6.

I still thoroughly enjoy my class, I still do arenas (I just xferred yesterday, so new teams). What's more, is that I don't post on the forums every day calling Blizzard names, demanding nerfs to every other class and/or threatening in public the cancellation of my account.

Imagine that.


You're %#@@ing kidding, right? S7 was pretty mediocre and I wouldn't argue with the notion that we were overnerfed after Shadowfrost went rampant, rolling faces in such a fashion that had never been seen before. However, we were very strong contenders for the remainder of WotLK. There were plenty of DK's in the top 100 of 2v2, 3v3 (imagine that, we had a place in 3s)...

You're also a Dual-Wield Frost DK. You're doing it wrong right out of the gate.
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85 Worgen Priest
1740
01/17/2011 5:05 AMPosted by Lilbunnyfufu
^This. Pulling up numbers that clearly were not equal to begin with is stupid.

It's like me saying "feral druids just dont play arena", because out of all of my arena games, i have yet to come across a feral druid. Which would be absurd of me to say.

That aside, it still doesnt change the fact that in BG's (with me running 3.4k resil), that your dots eat through what i can heal. And this isnt even with stuns/cc/or healing debuffs. I'm thankful that i havent come across feral druids in bg's because it would be a slaughter.

You deserve a nerf. You need a nerf. I think them nerfing your berserk is retarted. They just needed to greatly decrease the damage your dots do.

Btw, no other class in game can eat through me like feral druids can. Not even close.


Whoa, you mean to tell me a feral druid is able to kill a resto druid for the first time in the history of this game? Indeed, break out that nerf bat.

You're really looking forward to 100% lockdown on a feral after next patch aren't you?
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01/17/2011 12:10 AMPosted by Covaz
THIS WEEKS LIST

1. Resto Shaman - 58
2. Affliction lock - 52
3. Frost Mage - 49
4. Holy Pally - 34
5. Shadow Priest - 30
5. Unholy DK - 30
7. Resto Druid - 24
8. Arms Warrior - 18
9. Enhance Shaman - 17
9. Sub Rogue - 17
9. Ass. Rogue - 17
12. Feral Druid - 8
13. Surv. Hunter - 5
14. Demo lock - 4
15. Destro lock - 3
15. Disc. Priest - 3
15. Boomkin - 3
18. Fire Mage - 2
18. Frost DK - 2
20. Elemental Shaman - 1
20. Holy Priest - 1
20. Arcane Mage - 1


Top 20 teams: 3v3




Bloodlust:

R. Shaman: 11
E. Shaman: 0
Warlock:8
R. Druid : 2
F. Druid : 1
Paladin:6
Rogue:4
Mage:9
DK:9
s.Priest:4
Warrior :2
Hunter:1

Cyclone:

R. Shaman: 13
E. Shaman: 1
Warlock:5
R. Druid : 1
F. Druid : 3
Paladin:9
Rogue:4
Mage:6
DK:3
s.Priest:0
Warrior :7
Hunter:0

Ruin:

R. Shaman:9
E. Shaman:2
Warlock:10
R. Druid : 5
F. Druid : 3
Paladin:5
Rogue:4
Mage:4
DK:5
s.Priest:1
Warrior :7
Hunter:0

Reckoning:

R. Shaman:10
E. Shaman:5
Warlock:9
R. Druid : 2
F. Druid : 1
Paladin:5
Rogue:3
Mage:9
DK:6
s.Priest:4
d.priest:2
Warrior :4
Hunter:0


Stormstrike:

R. Shaman:10
E. Shaman:3
Warlock:12
R. Druid : 5
F. Druid : 2
Paladin:5
Rogue:5
Mage:8
DK:2
s.Priest:3
d.priest:0
Warrior :9
Hunter:0


Parse Script [Parsing 20000 arena teams in 3v3 over 2000]

R. Shaman:
E. Shaman:
Warlock:
R. Druid :
F. Druid :
Paladin:
R.Paladin:
Rogue:
Mage:
DK:
S.Priest:
D.Priest:
Warrior:
Hunter:



Glad no one at Blizzard has any idea of what the are doing.


ty for this you are my hero. lol
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01/17/2011 5:32 AMPosted by Zzaty
Feral druids are overpowered, however much you do or don't want to believe it.
Virtually unpeelable and probably the second highest damage(under warriors) in addition to a pummel were never meant to go with each other.
The same for shaman having dispel and tremor which is why that is also getting fixed.


please tell me your kidding when you put us on second dmg.. where is the mage in this i mean honestly 60k shatter combos are fair i forgot.
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:)
Edited by Pandx on 1/17/2011 8:39 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
3210
Resto shaman are hard to kill. Even with 5 point bleeds. Sometimes, I just give up and run away.

Why don't they die , if we're OP? Is it because the player is good, or the class?
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