Clearly Feral was OP (numbers)

100 Tauren Druid
19635
Well, Let's assume that blizzard wants to make it so that every spec is equally represented in arena.

There are ten classes. Each have three specs to use. This makes 30 different specs to balance for.

For 2v2's top 100: 100 * 2 / 30 = 200 / 30 = 6.6666... (repeating, of course) players of each spec should be in the top 100.
For 3v3's top 100: 100 * 3 / 30 = 300 / 30 = 10 players of each spec should be in the top 100.
For 5v5's top 100: 100 * 5 / 30 = 500 / 30 = 16.66666... players of each spec should be in the top 100.

If anything, the excessive representation (that is, 300% over the ideal amount) of Resto shamans, Affliction warlocks, Frost mages, Holy Paladins, Shadow Preists, and Unholy DKs means they should be nerfed, not Feral Druids, Balance Druids, etc.
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85 Draenei Hunter
5580
01/20/2011 3:12 PMPosted by Tigwig
If Blizzard actually starts buffing and nerfing according to numbers in representation it will finally be sunshine for hunters.


False.
Sorry to tell you, but the numbers of F.Druids (or any class for that matter) in the 3v3 bracket doesn't even come close to representing all PvP.

01/20/2011 3:12 PMPosted by Tigwig
As it is now they are just as likely to nerf hunters again... look you are right next to feral druids isn't hat reason enough?


And it would be well deserved, Aimed Shot! crits for 40k+ on the PTR.
Blizz knows what they're doing, almost like they can determine things using some theoretical realm where the patch is already in effect.
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
Yet the number are the same for all brackets on all battlegroups. Damn hunter, always trying to misdirect.
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85 Draenei Hunter
5580
01/20/2011 3:29 PMPosted by Stormcat
Yet the number are the same for all brackets on all battlegroups. Damn hunter, always trying to misdirect.


01/20/2011 3:18 PMPosted by Whalerus
representing all PvP.


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85 Tauren Druid
4625
1. Resto Shaman - 58
2. Affliction lock - 52


So I teamed up with a holy pally for 2's. Last night grinding up from 1500, had about a 30 minute fight vs an aff lock and resto shaman.

Couldnt get either one to below 40%. Occasionally the lock had mana issues, but he just lifetapped and the shammy healed him.

I decided to kill the pet and they must have not noticed and didnt heal the felhunter in time.
So I was like....yay, I killed something!.....and then my screen froze and I got d/c'ed.

Apparently blizzard d/ced me cause they were afraid the aff lock and resto shammy might lose a match.
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85 Tauren Druid
3555
This is definitely one of the best posts and should be combined with this one which instead of data explains it all in pictures, warning funny!

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1869226551
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Its Obvious. Feral druids are Overpowered.

We're overpowered at being under-represented, We're overpowered at attracting hate, and we're overpowered at being underpowered.
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85 Tauren Druid
5690
Just making a post to make sure these numbers stay at the front of the forums. They are too telling to let pass.
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100 Tauren Druid
19635
Blizzard, the numbers aren't lying. This shapeshifting nerf is not needed.
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100 Night Elf Druid
10000
I hope the devs get kicked in the nuts.


Doesnt that require nuts to begin with?

LOL
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100 Night Elf Druid
10000
Oh yea we totally need a nerf(sarcasm) .the fact of the matter is bleeds were op not our ability to escape snares and this is what blizzard really needs to look at
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85 Night Elf Druid
5780
If Blizzard actually starts buffing and nerfing according to numbers in representation it will finally be sunshine for hunters.


False.
Sorry to tell you, but the numbers of F.Druids (or any class for that matter) in the 3v3 bracket doesn't even come close to representing all PvP.

As it is now they are just as likely to nerf hunters again... look you are right next to feral druids isn't hat reason enough?


And it would be well deserved, Aimed Shot! crits for 40k+ on the PTR.
Blizz knows what they're doing, almost like they can determine things using some theoretical realm where the patch is already in effect.
Except that there are these hotfix things that happen when things in the theorical don't work as planned. Happens alot really.
Edited by Forestlord on 1/21/2011 1:48 PM PST
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81 Draenei Shaman
0
01/21/2011 1:40 PMPosted by Vaelkyri
can i haz ur representation?


hunters are broken, we are all aware of that. i hope you get buffs. i do. i have an 84 hunter that i might pvp on if they become viable, or at least fun to play. but this is a druid thread.

01/20/2011 3:18 PMPosted by Whalerus
Blizz knows what they're doing, almost like they can determine things using some theoretical realm where the patch is already in effect.


if they were paying any attention at all to the ptr they'd know that in trying to make feral not "hard counter" (lol) frost mages, they made frost mages, locks, and probably tree druids hard counters to feral.

it's almost like they don't know what the hell they're doing! but no, they've never ever overnerfed a class, especially not ferals, which they've done such a good job of balancing over the years.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3780
01/21/2011 1:47 PMPosted by Forestlord
Except that there are these hotfix things that happen when things in the theorical don't work as planned. Happens alot really.


Holy hell, the patch (and things after it is applied) are subject to change?
Maybe you should go tell Nimbosa that.

01/21/2011 1:48 PMPosted by Nimbosa
if they were paying any attention at all to the ptr they'd know that in trying to make feral not "hard counter" (lol) frost mages, they made frost mages, locks, and probably tree druids hard counters to feral.


Them nerfing the ability to shift out of snares doesn't seem like something that's going to stay.
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85 Tauren Druid
3555
The real reason for the nerf was to ensure mages can get off a shatter combo against both feral and balance.

It's just that simple. If Blizzard has to break the entire PVP experience for Druids to enable mage shatter combos then so be it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
Bumped so people will drop the feral is OPed mantra once and for all.
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85 Tauren Druid
4115
01/21/2011 4:05 PMPosted by Stormcat
Bumped so people will drop the feral is OPed mantra once and for all.


People started calling feral OP before the pre-TBC patch came out. They will never stop doing so, because they are idiots and have never been able to accept getting beat up by a cat.
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85 Tauren Druid
5685
I hear 2v2 is what blizzard balances arena around....oh wait...
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100 Troll Druid
14115
01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
If you had taken a basic statistics/data managment course, you would have realized your data failed to address one very important thing:

Class representation

Assuming all these classes were equally represented, then yes your data would make sense. However, this is not a perfect world, and class balance equally will never happen.

This is one of the few good points that gets brought up to counter these numbers and I respect the people that take the time to consider it. However I would make a counter-point as to why these numbers do have relevance in any discussion of spec balance, or at least this one.

13. Surv. Hunter - 5
14. Demo lock - 4
15. Destro lock - 3
15. Disc. Priest - 3
15. Boomkin - 3
18. Fire Mage - 2
18. Frost DK - 2
20. Elemental Shaman - 1
20. Holy Priest - 1
20. Arcane Mage - 1

These are the specs immediately below Feral on the list of representation in 3s. A similar argument could be made for these specs that due to their previous lack of viability in arena there are likely many less serious PVPers using them in arena.

But there's two important things to look at here. First of all, some of the specs including Disc and Ele were very strong in previous seasons. By your reasoning there should be many more people playing these specs - than for example Holy priests - and should have a moderately low. The players that did make the top 20 proved it's possible after all and it's logical to assume that due to previous prominence in arena there would be more highly skilled players using and pushing these specs to their limits to reach these ratings.

Secondly there's all the other specs that, like feral, have not been strong in previous seasons. As you say it's reasonable to assume that there may be many less players using things like moonkin as they would have little reason to play and practice their skills in previous seasons. Specs that have nearly never been viable like moonkin and holy priests would have the lowest player base of all going into this season using this logic. So we should be able to extrapolate from that, that these specs are actually in a decent place in 3s to have any representation at all. Or at least they would simply be below average, right?

Well this is where that logic falls apart. I haven't seen any posts by any class on these forums that suggests that Survival Hunters, non-Affliction Locks, Moonkin, Ele, Holy, Disc, etc. are not in desperate need of PVP buffs to be considered remotely viable.

01/17/2011 12:51 AMPosted by Syronas
Also you only mentioned 3v3. What about 2v2, I'd argue that an OP class has more of an effect there, than 3v3 where it's more about team-play and not solo-OPness..

I don't recall the post but players have compiled the numbers across all 3 brackets as well and they're very similar. While Feral is very well suited if not overpowered in 2s they are even weaker in 5s than they are in 3s due to the lack of defensive abilities.

Additionally both Blizzard and a large number of players have made it clear that it is neither desired nor realistic to balance PVP around 1v1 or 2v2 combat.

Thank you though for making a reasonable, rational, and not inflammatory post. It is good to see well thought out arguments on both sides of this debate.

EDIT: just woke up, edited out some stupids I posted
Edited by Shalune on 1/21/2011 5:50 PM PST
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