Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!

(Locked)

100 Draenei Warrior
15645
Hello, I'm Waniou, and I'm here to give you a somewhat brief guide to how monsters attack you in WoW. Since this is the tank forum, I'm looking at solely things from a tank point of view so I really don't care at all about diminishing returns on crit rating and stuff. Just avoidance.

1. The Attack Table

So, firstly, we look at how attacks on WoW are calculated. WoW uses what's called a single roll system, so basically, when you or a mob attacks, a single random number is generated and the results of the attack are determined based on that. Think of it like rolling a dice. Say, for example, you have a 1/6 chance to be missed, you have a 1/6 chance to dodge and a 1/6 chance to parry. If you roll a 1, the attack is a miss, if you roll a 2, the attack is dodged, if you roll a 3, the attack is parried. Anything else and the attack lands.

This might seem unimportant but it has two very important results.

Firstly, avoidance is additive, not multiplicative. One of the common mistakes people make in coming into the game is getting that wrong. What's the difference? Well, if it were multiplicative, it would mean that first the game would calculate if the attack was missed. If it wasn't, it would then calculate if the attack was dodged. If it wasn't, it would then calculate if the attack was parried. This results in a different total avoidance to what it actually is. For the maths, you'd get

Avoidance total = (1 - (1 - dodge) x (1 - parry) x (1 - miss)

This is wrong. Don't use this. To get your total avoidance, you can simply add your avoidance stats together. Which leads to the second very important result: It's possible to become what is referred to as "unhittable". Now, to clear up some confusing terminology here, it does not mean you take no damage. It means you're never "hit". Which sounds confusing, so let's look at the attack table!

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Critical
Ordinary Hit


The attack table is filled out in that order, from top to bottom. Now, criticals are kept in for the sake of completion here (I've left out a few things that tanks need never worry about, such as glancing or crushing blows) but against bosses, the critical chance is always 0% provided you've specced correctly. There are mobs, however, who can crit despite having those talents but that's not going to be covered in this thread.

It's worth noting here that player attacks use the same sort of attack table. (Which means hit/exp doesn't make Savage Defense proc more)

So, to fill out the table with some generic avoidance stats, we get this:

Miss...5%
Dodge..10%
Parry..10%
Block..40%
Hit....


Anyone who's done any basic maths knows a list of percent chances needs to add up to 100, so whatever's not avoidance is chance to be fully hit:

Miss...5%
Dodge..10%
Parry..10%
Block..40%
Hit......35%


This is where being unhittable comes in. If you can increase your avoidance stats high enough, usually by stacking a lot of block, you can reduce your chance to be fully hit to 0%. At this point, you're unhittable.


It's worth pointing out here, that mobs higher levelled than you have an innately higher chance to hit. It works out to be a 0.2% decrease to each avoidance stat per level above you, so for warriors and Paladins, 0.8% total per level, DKs have 0.6% total per level and druids have 0.4% total per level. However, only shield tanks are ever going to reach unhittable because of how diminishing returns work, since bosses are 3 levels above you, so you actually need to get your avoidance to add up to 102.4%, not 100%. (Thanks Mnemoniq for clarifying this)

There's another thing you might notice: Dodge and parry are above block. This makes sense really, because dodging and parry an entire attack are preferable to blocking part of an attack, but it does mean that if your dodge, miss, parry and block add up to more than 102.4%, your block chance is decreased and you wind up with wasted block chance that does nothing. This is usually referred to as the block cap (Warriors have a soft and hard cap to worry about, the soft cap being 102.4% with Shield Block up)

So the way this works in combat is similar to the dice roll I mentioned earlier. Every time a monster hits you, the computer calculates a random number between 0.00% and 100%, then based on that, looks up what that number corresponds to in the attack table and then does whatever with it. So, say, if it rolls a 3.67%, that becomes a miss. If it rolls a 17.91%, it becomes a dodge and so on.

This does bring up another question though, of where do absorbs (including Savage Defense and Blood Shield) lie? They're a unique case that's calculated after the attack table. If it's a miss, no damage is done to be absorbed, if it's blocked, only the reduced hit is absorbed. Critical block works similarly. After you block, it rolls again to see if it's a crit.
Edited by Waniou on 3/7/2011 7:46 PM PST
100 Draenei Warrior
15645
And that's really all there is to the attack table. So now, we go onto the other topic of this thread:

2. Diminishing Returns

This is another this with a slightly confusing name because it shares it with another concept in WoW, which is diminishing returns on Crowd Control. Those who pvp a lot know that if you try to keep CCing an enemy player, the spell suffers diminishing returns, with a reduced duration. I won't go into the details but what it means is, say you polymorph that hunter. The first tme, it lasts for 8 seconds. Second time, for 4 seconds. Then 2, then 1, then it becomes immune for a time. I have no idea if that's exactly how it works but that's the basics of it.

Why do I mention this here? For a very simple reason.

Avoidance diminishing returns do not work like this.

There is a unfortunately common misconception that, what avoidance diminishing returns means is that if you avoid an attack, the chance of avoiding the next attack is lower. This is not true at all and avoidance diminishing returns is nothing like this. If you have 10% dodge at the start of the battle, you will have 10% dodge after dodging an attack, you will have 10% dodge after parrying an attack and this will not change because you dodged or parried or blocked. It might change if you gain a buff, but not solely because of having dodged an attack earlier.

If anyone tells you that dodging an attack reduces the chance that you will dodge the next attack is telling you lies. It is in no way true and never has been true.

Forgive my repeated boldings, but I feel this simply is that important that it needs to be stated repeatedly.


So, this raises the very important and very obvious question: What does avoidance diminishing returns mean?

It's really quite simple. Well, the maths isn't so much but the concept is very simple. As you gain more dodge rating and agility on your gear, the amount of dodge you get per point is lower and as you gain more parry rating, the amount of parry you get per point is lower. This is always in effect, there's no magic % where it starts kicking in. It just becomes harsher at higher levels of avoidance. (Note: Base agility doesn't suffer from or contribute to diminishing returns)

It's also worth pointing out that the two avoidance stats aren't linked in diminishing returns. Having high parry will not increase the amount diminishing returns affects dodge and vice versa.
It's also worth pointing out that block does not suffer diminishing returns. This is why it's so useful to stack to become unhittable. This also means that druids and DKs are basically never going to be unhittable. Mostly because that would be very OP.


So, to get into the maths of it (Feel free to skip this bit if you really don't care), we have this lovely formula:

1 1 k
- = - + -
x' c x

Where
x' is avoidance after diminishing returns
x is avoidance before diminishing returns
c is the dodge/parry cap (65.631440% for warriors, paladins and DKs, 116.890707 for druids)
k is a constant equal to 0.9560 for warriors, paladins and DKs, 0.9720 for druids



It's not too ugly (Although I say this as someone with a degree in maths) but you can clearly see from it that 1: Like I said, it doesn't change in combat depending on previously having dodged things) and 2: Like I also said, there's no magic number where it starts kicking in.



3. Summary

So. Combat table is a single roll. Your total avoidance is worked out by adding it up and if it's more than 102.4%, bosses can't hit you.

Diminishing returns simply means that the more dodge you have, the less dodge chance you get from dodge rating and the same for parry.

It's really not that complicated at all.



4. Ending stuff
My sources for this stuff come from
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/
and
http://www.wowpedia.org/Attack_table

Thanks to all the OTers and other people around here who helped me get this information. You people are the main reason I come back to this forum :D


Footnote: Just to clarify on block and avoidance. Avoiding an attack means it never lands fully, and since block only reduces part of it, it isn't usually counted as true avoidance. I'm including it here as such though, because it's not a full hit and has its own unique place on the attack table.
Edited by Waniou on 3/7/2011 7:48 PM PST
85 Human Warrior
4130
Definitely glad this is here, should answer plenty of people's questions should they have any about how the combat table works. =)
90 Draenei Warrior
10620
Sticky please.
80 Human Paladin
3905
STICKY!!!!!!!



Oh and please remember to REPORT this post for a sticky!!!
Edited by Celyndrashad on 1/16/2011 1:51 AM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
11215
01/16/2011 1:40 AMPosted by Waniou
Hello, I'm Waniou, and I'm here to give you a somewhat brief guide to how monsters attack you in WoW. Since this is the tank forum, I'm looking at solely things from a tank point of view so I really don't care at all about diminishing returns on crit rating and haste rating and stuff. Just avoidance.


Some tank classes actually do care about the offensive attack table, since our mitigation depends on it. ;)
Edited by Kalisti on 1/16/2011 1:53 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Warrior
4025
+5, informative
100 Draenei Warrior
15645
01/16/2011 1:53 AMPosted by Kalisti
Hello, I'm Waniou, and I'm here to give you a somewhat brief guide to how monsters attack you in WoW. Since this is the tank forum, I'm looking at solely things from a tank point of view so I really don't care at all about diminishing returns on crit rating and haste rating and stuff. Just avoidance.


Some tank classes actually do care about the offensive attack table, since our mitigation depends on it. ;)
Hmm, this is true. I should mention this briefly in the attack table section.
100 Draenei Warrior
15645
For every level above you a monster is, it gains a .2% bonus vs every avoidance statistic your character possesses. So raid bosses, being 3 levels higher, ignore .6% dodge, .6% parry, .6% miss, and .6% block, which is where the 102.4% number comes from. Druids and Death Knights would only need to reach 101.8% since they do not possess block, but since this cannot happen within the scope of the current game it's largely ignored.
I did not realise this. Wasn't entirely sure where it actually fit into the combat table, but thanks for telling me and I shall work that in.
100 Tauren Warrior
16000
1 1 1
- = - + -
x' c kx

Where
x' is avoidance after diminishing returns
x is avoidance before diminishing returns
c is the dodge/parry cap (65.531440%)
k is a constant equal to 0.9560


Are these c and k values for all tanks?
100 Draenei Warrior
15645
01/16/2011 6:07 AMPosted by Skirataado
Are these c and k values for all tanks?
They are, if I'm reading the Elitistjerks thread correctly.
100 Tauren Warrior
16000
01/16/2011 6:13 AMPosted by Waniou
They are, if I'm reading the Elitistjerks thread correctly.

Cool, didn't realize DKs, Pallys, and Warriors all shared the same DRs now. But Druids still have different values, with c = 116.89 and k = 0.972
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Block is not technically avoidance, but I'll let it slide for the sake of what you are describing.

Druids will never reach 101.2%, so meh. It is theoretically possible to reach the Warrior/Paladin equivalent by having an SD up to mitigate every incoming hit though. However the math on that makes my brain hurt.
100 Draenei Warrior
15645
They are, if I'm reading the Elitistjerks thread correctly.

Cool, didn't realize DKs, Pallys, and Warriors all shared the same DRs now. But Druids still have different values, with c = 116.89 and k = 0.972
Oh so they do. Fixed that.



01/16/2011 9:37 AMPosted by Arielle
Block is not technically avoidance, but I'll let it slide for the sake of what you are describing.

Druids will never reach 101.2%, so meh. It is theoretically possible to reach the Warrior/Paladin equivalent by having an SD up to mitigate every incoming hit though. However the math on that makes my brain hurt.


I know but I'm basically meaning "Anything that isn't a full hit" when I say avoidance.
Edited by Waniou on 1/16/2011 1:51 PM PST
85 Draenei Paladin
7975
Good job on stealing this from other forums.
100 Night Elf Druid
11215
01/16/2011 1:50 PMPosted by Waniou

I know but I'm basically meaning "Anything that isn't a full hit" when I say avoidance.


Is that really a sensible definition? Do you really think it makes sense to say Essence of Gossamer has a 100% avoidance proc?
85 Human Paladin
6435
01/16/2011 2:15 PMPosted by Chanserv
Good job on stealing this from other forums.


Even though nothing is stolen?

@Waniou
/bow
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]