Resilience Scaling <Math included>

1 Draenei Hunter
0
I can see absolutely no problem with resilience being the most desirable stat in pvp.


Neither do I, but resilience can still be made king without exponential scaling to fuel balance issues as the seasons progress.
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85 Human Priest
5480
There have never, in the history of arenas, been a problem with resilience being too strong. In 4.0 there was a brief problem with it being too strong, but that was because of a temporary buff to it, and there were no arenas at that time.

Seriously, since it was introduced, resilience has been steadily buffed to be more powerful, because as seasons progress it has never been enough to keep damage reasonable.
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85 Tauren Warrior
1960
01/14/2011 10:44 PMPosted by Apox
It's possible that it was, although making the resilience cap a realistic goal to reach (compared to the armor cap) while also making it a very desirable goal to reach implies a problem similar to WOTLK's relationship with Hit Rating.

The easier it is to get to the resil cap, the earlier people will start switching to PvE gear.

I mean, comparing a PvE and a PvP item of the same ilevel, as long as you can stay at the resil cap, the PvE item loses no survivability, since the STA is the same across items of the same ilevel.


The thing is, that you will most likely always need nearly full pvp gear to reach and maintain the resil cap throughout all the seasons.

If resil got nerfed or had DR on it's effect then it woudl actually lead to using PvE gear much much earlier than if it simply just keeps the cap.

If I could get 30% damage reduction with a reasonable amount of resil.. then it started to DR .. and past 40% it was even worse .. then I would drop pvp gear left and right past 30% and just stack PvE gear.

If you placed a DR on Resil it would make the problem blizz is trying to avoid magnified tremendously, everyone would simply use PvE gear past that threshold sort of like early Wotlk.


That's why the suggestion is to linearize it, not to put DR on it. If it's linearized it's just as good at 0% as at 30% as at 40%. Do you see people dropping Strength left and right to get other stats? The most powerful stat can be a linear stat, with most stats being linear it pretty much has to be.
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85 Goblin Hunter
4855
The biggest problem I see with the "resilience has to diminish" argument is it starts to collapse when you bring PVE gear into the equation. At some point resilience won't be providing any real value per point, and then PVE gear will always be optimal in it's place because you can use it to "dodge" some resilience.

PVE gear must have no place in high end pvp, just like PVP gear must have no place in high end raiding.




The thing is, that you will most likely always need nearly full pvp gear to reach and maintain the resil cap throughout all the seasons.

If resil got nerfed or had DR on it's effect then it woudl actually lead to using PvE gear much much earlier than if it simply just keeps the cap.

If I could get 30% damage reduction with a reasonable amount of resil.. then it started to DR .. and past 40% it was even worse .. then I would drop pvp gear left and right past 30% and just stack PvE gear.

If you placed a DR on Resil it would make the problem blizz is trying to avoid magnified tremendously, everyone would simply use PvE gear past that threshold sort of like early Wotlk.


That's why the suggestion is to linearize it, not to put DR on it. If it's linearized it's just as good at 0% as at 30% as at 40%. Do you see people dropping Strength left and right to get other stats? The most powerful stat can be a linear stat, with most stats being linear it pretty much has to be.


Resilience isn't like strength. You can never do enough damage in PVE (unless you're constantly wrestling with you tank for aggro, an unrealistic scenario right now) but you can have enough resilience to survive. If there is no compelling reason to stack resilience past a certain point no one will ever be interested in it past that point and that's where PVE gear sneaks in. The same will never be said of strength.
Edited by Hairuk on 1/14/2011 11:07 PM PST
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85 Tauren Warrior
1960
01/14/2011 10:55 PMPosted by Vivesection
There have never, in the history of arenas, been a problem with resilience being too strong. In 4.0 there was a brief problem with it being too strong, but that was because of a temporary buff to it, and there were no arenas at that time.

Seriously, since it was introduced, resilience has been steadily buffed to be more powerful, because as seasons progress it has never been enough to keep damage reasonable.


So if slam were to be buffed to deal damage equal to half of the target's health it would be balanced because slam was never a problem before?
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
At some point resilience won't be providing any real value per point, and then PVE gear will always be optimal in it's place because you can use it to "dodge" some resilience.


This would never happen outside of a cap. Per itemization point, it would always provide the same boost in effective health.
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85 Goblin Warlock
6425
01/14/2011 10:57 PMPosted by Bredman


The thing is, that you will most likely always need nearly full pvp gear to reach and maintain the resil cap throughout all the seasons.

If resil got nerfed or had DR on it's effect then it woudl actually lead to using PvE gear much much earlier than if it simply just keeps the cap.

If I could get 30% damage reduction with a reasonable amount of resil.. then it started to DR .. and past 40% it was even worse .. then I would drop pvp gear left and right past 30% and just stack PvE gear.

If you placed a DR on Resil it would make the problem blizz is trying to avoid magnified tremendously, everyone would simply use PvE gear past that threshold sort of like early Wotlk.


That's why the suggestion is to linearize it, not to put DR on it. If it's linearized it's just as good at 0% as at 30% as at 40%. Do you see people dropping Strength left and right to get other stats? The most powerful stat can be a linear stat, with most stats being linear it pretty much has to be.


I am not sure what they could do to make it scale "more" linear really. I mean the way they changed it in cata compared to wotlk removed alot of the exponential scaling it had. I mean it scaled pretty nasty in wotlk after it needed numerous buffs. I suppose tho it needed to scale so absurdly because damage was increasing at such a rapid rate in relation to our health pools.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
I am not sure what they could do to make it scale "more" linear really.


They'd just need to make it function exactly as armor does.
Edited by Mayeli on 1/14/2011 11:10 PM PST
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85 Goblin Hunter
4855
01/14/2011 11:04 PMPosted by Mayeli
At some point resilience won't be providing any real value per point, and then PVE gear will always be optimal in it's place because you can use it to "dodge" some resilience.


This would never happen outside of a cap. Per itemization point, it would always provide the same boost in effective health.


Thank you for quoting only part of my post in a way that you could quickly brush past the substance of my argument. A cap can be a physical limit, or an imaginary percent where your class can survive just enough. The point exists for every class, and if resilience does not become more compelling it will simply be ignored past this point.
Edited by Hairuk on 1/14/2011 11:12 PM PST
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85 Tauren Warrior
1960
01/14/2011 11:02 PMPosted by Hairuk
The biggest problem I see with the "resilience has to diminish" argument is it starts to collapse when you bring PVE gear into the equation. At some point resilience won't be providing any real value per point, and then PVE gear will always be optimal in it's place because you can use it to "dodge" some resilience.

PVE gear must have no place in high end pvp, just like PVP gear must have no place in high end raiding.


It will NOT diminish with the changed formula. It will stay constant in value. The change is to prevent it from increasing in value.

Sample formula: Damage Reduction = 1 - 1/( 1 + resilience/6650 )
This formula would linearize resilience so that 30% Damage reduction requires roughly the same amount. It would buff all lesser amounts to be just as powerful, and reduce all higher values to be just as weak. If going from 0 to 30% resilience is worth the trade-off, this formula will guarantee it's worth the trade-off for all values of resilience.

Every linearized formula will be this format and just replace the 6650 with however much resilience should be needed to reach 50% Damage Reduction.
Edited by Bredman on 1/14/2011 11:19 PM PST
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
Thank you for quoting only part of my post in a way that it would support your argument.


I quoted what I was responding to.

The point exists for every class, and if resilience does not become more compelling it will simply be ignored past this point.


If they feel they have enough resilience, then that's fine. If you can get away with so little resilience that you're able to make good use of PVE items, instead of simply shifting how you enchant and gem, then that's an issue. However, if everything is scaling appropriately you'll require the same percent of your item budget for resilience each season.
Edited by Mayeli on 1/14/2011 11:15 PM PST
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85 Undead Warlock
7450
01/14/2011 7:51 PMPosted by Bredman
So down the road, resilience will get rebalanced.



Shocker.


And imagine what would happen if you just made resilience work like armor, you wouldn't have to re-balance at all.


This is precisely where player frustration will come into play. The devs have a limited amount of time for development. It really comes down to whether or not it would be better to have resilience work now and need to be rebalanced later (spending a little bit of development time at both stages) or spending a relatively large amount of development time to make sure resilience works through the entire expansion pack.

Remember, they really wanted to throttle PvP damage this xpac, and their short term solution erred on the side of more rather than less. The long term solution (with linear scaling) means that they might not get the ratio of damage to mitigation that they want and it's unlikely to fix itself.

Mind you, I'm not arguing with you. Your posts in this thread have been very mathy and smart...god I hate math. So I'll leave the math up to you. I'm merely pointing out that "fix it later" might be the better option for a developer. Especially when you have a massive game that consumes so much development time.
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85 Goblin Hunter
4855
01/14/2011 11:15 PMPosted by Mayeli
Thank you for quoting only part of my post in a way that it would support your argument.


I quoted what I was responding to.

The point exists for every class, and if resilience does not become more compelling it will simply be ignored past this point.


If they feel they have enough resilience, then that's fine. If you can get away with so little resilience that you're able to make good use of PVE items, instead of simply shifting how you enchant and gem, then that's an issue. However, if everything is scaling appropriately you'll require the same percent of your item budget for resilience each season.


If a class is fine at a certain amount of resilience (and I am stating that this point will exist for every class if damage is to be brought to a reasonable level) and the same percentage of a higher Ilevel item's budget is used for resilience, eventually replacing some of the PVP gear with PVE gear will become the clearly superior choice. Unless that same chunk of resilience has a higher value at this point, high enough to outweigh the extra secondary stats that you will always need (extra damage, healing, regen) versus the survivability you do not necessarily need.
Edited by Hairuk on 1/14/2011 11:33 PM PST
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
Why is everyone here saying resilience scales exponentially.


As I'm not a mathlete myself, I'm just going with the terminology established in the thread for the sake of communication.
Edited by Mayeli on 1/14/2011 11:29 PM PST
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
If a class is fine at a certain amount of resilience and the same percentage of a higher Ilevel item's budget is used for resilience, eventually replacing some of the PVP gear with PVE gear will become the clearly superior choice.


No? If you don't have the space for PVE items in the first tier, then you won't have it for them in any other tier so long as scaling hits close to the mark.
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85 Tauren Warrior
1960
01/14/2011 11:22 PMPosted by Aderis
Why is everyone here saying resilience scales exponentially.

It doesn't. It scales hyperbolically.

The relevant formula is effective HP = HP/(avg dmg taken * (1 - resilience))

This is a hyperbola, not an exponential function.

To be more precise, increasing resilience hyperbolically increases your survival time.

But in the end, the OP's main point stands.


Didn't know the right term for it so thanks for that. All I could come up with was more extreme than exponential.
What's the purpose of the avg dmg taken portion?
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85 Goblin Warlock
6425
Why is everyone here saying resilience scales exponentially.

It doesn't. It scales hyperbolically.

The relevant formula is effective HP = HP/(avg dmg taken * (1 - resilience))

This is a hyperbola, not an exponential function.

To be more precise, increasing resilience hyperbolically increases your survival time.

But in the end, the OP's main point stands.


Didn't know the right term for it so thanks for that. All I could come up with was more extreme than exponential.
What's the purpose of the avg dmg taken portion?


I think a Hyperbola is a function of y=x^2 etc.... at least thats' what I remember of it. I am probably slightly wrong it has been quite a long time since I had that sort of math, and I was only a business major not a "super math dood"
Edited by Apox on 1/14/2011 11:47 PM PST
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85 Worgen Druid
3515
01/14/2011 8:13 PMPosted by Bredman
Yes, resilience will need to have some sort of diminishing returns, the way that armor already does.


Armor doesn't, it simply doesn't have the increasing returns that resilience has. Armor is perfectly linear, just like strength is.


"Armor" isn't a function, it's only one variable. Graph armor rating vs damage reduction and what you get is a graph of diminishing returns, a logarithmic function. Graph armor rating vs life expectancy and you get an evenly sloping line. There is no need for you to "correct" what I wrote, because it was correct to begin with. Armor does have diminishing returns. Resilience needs to have the same or similar behavior.

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