Ghostcrawlers article on dungeons

100 Blood Elf Paladin
7325
Can someone link what we are talking about?

100 Undead Mage
5255
There can be a balance. I remember when certain dungeons in vanilla basically gave you a core dungeon raiding set. As you progressed through harder and harder dungeons you were able to replace that set with T1, then T2 and so forth. Almost all dungeons has some type of rep gain built into them, whether this was through the wear of a trinket or collecting bijous etc. I don't see why normal dungeons cannot be done this way.

Basically, normals should give some rep bonus in one fashion or another. I don't care if it's collecting drops off of trash mobs, or just rep for killing bosses. These dungeons should also build a basic dungeon set, much like in vanilla. This gear set then moves a character towards harder and harder dungeons. By the time a "raider" gets to the hard core they understand the mechanics of their class and are also geared decently to attempt the dungeon or, in this case, a "heroic" one.

Heroics should give out the higher tier sets, with the harder heroics obviously granting better stuff. Grinding any dungeon becomes beneficial because it gives true raiders a way to get the best gear while allowing casuals to get some nice stuff too even if they never will enter, or never want to attempt, heroics for that T20 (or w/e number we are on now).

As far as the oft ignored PvP sets, these should also scale and possibly be equivalent of at least the basic dungeon set plus one or two sets up. This allows PvPers to be awarded for their time and dedication to a different part of the game and grants them the ability to be productive in a dungeon versus being atuokicked for being in PvP gear which is considered terrible at the moment. Note, I am not advocating top PvP gear should equate to top tier gear, but it should at least be comparable to the basic set and, honestly, deserves to be better than it.

Yes, it's a fine line. However, I feel that true end game, true hardcore raiding, will not, and should not, be accessible to every single player. It takes a dedication beyond normal casual play. For the casual, there should be access to decent gear that is rewarded through progression from normal to increasingly harder heroic raiding. For PvP, gear should also be a reward for their time and skill in the various BGs and arenas.

Just a different view from an old player. Oh look, it's 830 and past my bed time. Where did I leave my walker? :-)
70 Dwarf Hunter
8385
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if you've read Ghostcrawler's post and you still think it's unreasonable, then this is NOT the game for you. You want something different from a game, and I'd advise you to go look elsewhere.
Edited by Gryndolf on 1/20/2011 7:40 PM PST
85 Human Mage
2240
01/20/2011 7:26 PMPosted by Migina
WTF? Why can we not say the word "g%!@!fruit"?! This is like the word censor that Wizards of the Coast has on the Gatherer website, where you can't say something like "assassin" without it getting censored.


Because someone doesn't know how to write a proper regex statement (or the equivalent).

When you want to filter "foo", you write so that it filters " foo " instead.

That way, when someone types "foobar" (which we'll say is a legitimate word), it doesn't get filtered.

Yeah yeah, someone will say "but you can type _foo_".

That's when you hand out a warning, and then forum bans for multiple offenses.


Ah, I see. Thanks very much for clarifying that for me.
100 Night Elf Druid
9235
Yeah. This expansion is just not it

Homogenizing all the healers and forcing them to use the slow and weak Heal spell... that's just annoying. I should know. I spent most of Vanilla rank4 healing touch healing. In comparison to well, just about anything after vanilla, that sucked.

Destroying key mechanics of classes for PvP is a stupid move. Druids, obviously. Giving warriors heroic leap (buggy as all get out) but taking away intercept is just silly. Listen up guys. And listen good because your players say this all the time: We do not want pvp nerfs to affect our pve play, period. That includes gutting abilities that have existed as they stand for 6 years. Pull your heads out on that one.

On the issue of balance- Tol Barad. Do we really need to say more? Just make it equal for attacking and defending. Jeez. Also, frost mages? Yeah. Another "more does not need to be said."
100 Human Rogue
5045
Deleted.
Edited by Anníka on 3/9/2011 10:33 AM PST
85 Night Elf Hunter
2780
My input on the dungeons;

The level of heroics is FINE. It is called HEROIC for a reason. Walking a moving a baby out of the middle of the street when you see a care approaching from 10 miles away at 60 miles an hour isn't heroic. For those who don't have the time, maybe you should do other things than Heroic PvE. Heroics gears you for raids. If you don't have the time to heroic, you won't have the time to raid at all. Once you get the heroic gear, yay, you have heroic gear, next you'll complain raids take to long.

I really don't see the argument that it takes too long. Heroic gear versus normal gear isn't going to effect anything but raiding so if you don't have the time to heroic, it doesn't matter. Yes there's the sense of "Yes, I have great gear!" but you will just keep wanting more after a while.

However, I do agree that is a rather large leap. In normals, you rarely use crowd control or other abilities that are necessity in heroics. One normal can give you that one piece of gear that gives you iLvl 329 and then BAM, you're in heroics and now have a lot more to focus on. Threat, Crowd Control, and for healers, mana, become real problems that suddenly are DROPPED on players.

On a final note, I haven't read the article, but this idea of the Dev's telling us to go deal with it... so what? They own this website, they own the game, they own your character, your account, they can ban you for whatever reason they want, it's their property. Not saying they have that attitude, merely saying if you think that they can't act that way, or even think that way, is horribly inaccurate.
10 Tauren Druid
0
01/20/2011 6:51 PMPosted by Migina
I feel that they just slipped on a banana peel in general with this entire expansion.

I don't mind a small increase in challenge, but What----The......F*bleeeep*!?

Are these guys colorblind that they can only see BLACK and WHITE or something?

Okay, Lich King.... that was White.

Now, we have, Black.

Guys? You do know that GREY exists, RIGHT!?

Where's the in-between?

Whatever happened to "Let everyone see the content, give an easy mode and a hard mode"?

We have Normals.... they don't reward enough for people to want to do them. Nobody wants to do Normals. Why? IT IS POINTLESS. Most of them will not give Rep (make them ALL give rep and then we'll talk), and the items out of all but three are useless to anyone at Lv85. Those that remain, you have to do many times until you get what you need (each boss drops an item, from a pool of what, 5-10 items?) and then you have to win the roll on the item. Oh, and you get a peasly 70JP per day... that's not even worth doing.

Then we have Heroics, the "OMG!" stuff. The casuals who don't have the time to slave away at the game trying to get geared respectably for these, the casuals who don't have the connections to get guild runs for these, are strongly discouraged from running these, but yet, these Heroics are the only way they can gear up and progress their character.

Raids?

Forget it unless you can do Heroics, which many casuals can't, due to the time required until you can enter them and carry your own weight in them.

What we need:

1). Normals must reward more.

2). Make it easier for people to get "Heroic Ready". Normals rewarding more would be a start, but how about also easing the rep grind a little? Maybe giving crafters more things to craft that are 333? There's only a handful of items, and only 3 classes get 333 crafted weapons, for example. Meanwhile, PvPers get a full suit of 359s.

3). Twilight Highlands should have better quest rewards. For anyone who ran Uldum, they will step into TH and see maybe 2-3 pieces of gear from TH that are actually better than they already had, but yet the challenge found in TH is a bit of a step up from what you saw in Uldum. Why is that?

4). Tol Barad should sell more gear. Seriously, ONLY a weapon and a trinket? Is that all we get out of Tol Barad commendations? Why? TBCs should get you 333 armor at the very least. You'd still have to do dailies to get the TBCs, which allows you to put in a considerable amount of work for your Heroic-Ready status.


I think this post pretty much hits the nail on the head. Regs need more rewards. How come the grind to get heroic ready is worse than the grind to get raid ready? It seems pretty silly and not well thought out.
70 Dwarf Hunter
8385
Couple of posters above summed it up nicely:

Regulars are meant to gear you up for Heroics, which are more challenging than regulars, and take more time to complete.
Heroics are meant to gear you up for raids, which are more challenging than Heroics and take more time to complete.

People are complaining that they don't have the time/skill to do regulars, but they still want the gear. What the funk for? You're saying you don't have the time to raid, but you want the gear anyway? Why? Are you even listening to yourself?

And no one is making you play this game. Why the deuce do you think a game should be tailored to YOU to make it so you WANT to play? You go find a game you'd rather play and play that instead - the games aren't supposed to change for you. Do you yell at directors of movies, demanding they do a remake if you didn't like it? No, you watch something else instead.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6720
heroics are so easy now, theres no excuse for not knowing the fights at this point
80 Blood Elf Warlock
6160
So blizzard is surprised by the fact that the casual player-base they intentionally picked up with WotLK is upset over the extreme ramp up in difficulty of the game? Why in the hell is that a surprise to them, blizzard went out of their way to pick up players who have never touched mmo's before let alone been expected to bang their heads for hours trying to learn mechanics and strats and weeks on end farming profession materials. I for the life of me can't understand why this is coming as a shock to them.
70 Dwarf Hunter
8385
01/20/2011 7:52 PMPosted by Spookerz
So blizzard is surprised by the fact that the casual player-base they intentionally picked up with WotLK is upset over the extreme ramp up in difficulty of the game? Why in the hell is that a surprise to them, blizzard went out of their way to pick up players who have never touched mmo's before let alone been expected to bang their heads for hours trying to learn mechanics and strats and weeks on end farming profession materials. I for the life of me can't understand why this is coming as a shock to them.


This is true - I really, really resented Blizzard for doing this in WoTLK. It destroyed the community and polluted the playerbase. And now they're trying to deal with the spoiled bastid children that they raised, who don't realized what spoiled bastids they are =(

Call me what you will, but the "Wrath babies" have never been welcome by me in this game, and I legitimately would like to see them playing something they'd rather play instead.
90 Draenei Shaman
12815
I feel blizzard did a great job with making the LFG tool. However, they ruined it by making most random groups fail due to difficulty. People are alot less likely to give it more than a few tries with random people.

Perhaps they need to improve the luck of the draw buff. Not sure how much that will help but it has got to be one of the easier fixes. The more people that randomly join the lfg group the stronger the buff.
90 Night Elf Druid
8200
01/20/2011 7:42 PMPosted by Anníka
I do not think you have made encounters harder, I just think you made them more complicated for the casual player.

They added one shot mechanics, interrupts and changed healing model. Oneshot mechanics mean that ignoring mechanics means you die. WotLK didnt really have any one shot mechanics and many of the dangerous mechanics became quickly ignorable due to health pools and healing picking up for fail. The closest thing to more complicated was adding interrupts which while not fun are not complicated, they have been in many fights and players have had many opportunities while leveling to learn how their interrupt abilities work. The thing that really changed was the healing model which requires a rethinking and more careful thought and use of spells in addition to healers no longer being able to pick up back to back mistakes or in most cases players standing in the wrong bloody place because someone else will do their job for them.

I take offense to your use of the term casual player as it seems you are referring to people of low skill and/or competence. If you want to say that you feel are the majority of players then say so.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 1/20/2011 8:03 PM PST
85 Worgen Hunter
1650
Drakeld wrote: "There can be a balance. I remember when certain dungeons in vanilla basically gave you a core dungeon raiding set. As you progressed through harder and harder dungeons you were able to replace that set with T1, then T2 and so forth. Almost all dungeons has some type of rep gain built into them, whether this was through the wear of a trinket or collecting bijous etc. I don't see why normal dungeons cannot be done this way."

I just want to point out that this is wrong. In Vanilla each class only had one dungeon set, and itemization was terrible until Dire Maul (which had no set items). Tiers beyond 1 all came from raids.

Vanilla had a lot going for it (mainly that it was exciting and new and nobody knew what they were doing), but smooth gear progression was NOT one of those things. Imagine running Stratholme 60 times because your pants just won't drop, but there is no other option if you can't raid. Hell, I was in a guild that had Ragnaros on farm for about a year, and I never got his dagger or those damned bloodfang pants. :P

Actually... that seems similar to how people are saying things are now. Would it be so bad if normal bosses gave JP?
90 Orc Death Knight
11265
GC is making game according to his liking now. We just need to rename it to World of Ghostcrawler and we are good.

I am sorry Blues, this xpac was disappointing by far.
85 Tauren Druid
8390
01/20/2011 7:49 PMPosted by Ginane
If Ghostcrawler's post had been well written, you would not be seeing these threads.

His intentions may have been good, but good intentions are not always enough.


I call BS; these forums are full of people that will take the most innocuous statement and use hyperbole and spin to turn it into something terrible.
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