Ghostcrawlers article on dungeons

100 Blood Elf Paladin
11120
01/20/2011 7:13 PMPosted by Buzzbomb
Ex-disc priest here. I Just wanna say that wotlk heroics were a lot of fun for me, for the same reason certain console games are successful... people like to feel that they are op.

I dont do cata heroic dungeons for several reasons, I dont want to spend 2-3hours to complete one.

I dont like that Blizz gave us so very few at the launch of a new xpac. Why would I think its fun to spend 2-3 hours per instance, and only have a handful to do? Seriously.


What?

You like to play a game, where the content is meaningless, and the rewards plentiful? Why exactly?

What did you actually do with the gear you mindlessly grinded for in WotLK? Strut around Dalaran, with your easy to acquire epics? You do realize the color of the rewards has no bearing on your skill or overall satisfaction of fun. Blizzard could have made all gear purple epics in heroics, and made them ilevel 346.

What fun is it, to know before hand, there is no difficulty in an encounter, and there is chance of dieing?


The problem is that right now, your not going into a fight with a chance of dying. Your going into a fight with a chance of living, dying being the most likely outcome.
85 Worgen Warrior
7885
I know you're probably frustrated by any number of issues Ghostcrawler tackled in his blog. We completely get that, which was the entire point of his post. We're not telling players it's our way or the highway. We're not burying our heads in the sand and letting you figure it out. He took a lot of his own time to try and provide some insight and positive reinforcement, admit some design mistakes we've made in Cataclysm, and let you know (most importantly) that we hear you.

We also have to recognize that there is a harsh debate within the community right now about the difficulty level. Players are flinging mud at one another and saying "learn to play", or "go grind in some other hardcore MMO". People aren't in agreement about these things and need to tone down the rhetoric (which Ghostcrawler addresses eloquently in his blog).

We're not going to join that debate, though we are players too. The best we can do right now -- as I think Ghostcrawler noted well -- is keep the dialog open and encourage constructive criticism, and even positive feedback. Hearing both what players like and don't like about select aspects of gameplay is useful to us.

The entire reason behind him writing that blog sprung from us sending him a particular thread (amongst many other we've been sending him since the launch of Cataclysm) that had him really concerned: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1660221627

He wants to see the tone of the debate changed so we can work together to make this a better game, so it's really unfortunate when you post as though he's throwing the naughty finger in your face. His post was not written from a place of hubris. Those who would take it that way probably just fundamentally disagree with the current design philosophy. But only two things are true in this case: 1) we will never please everyone with our design, and 2) we will never stop listening to our players.

In any event, I appreciate you taking the time to post. I just hope you can keep an open mind and a thoughtful dialog with us, as simply sharing with us how you perceive Ghostcrawler's attitude to be won't move game design anywhere. That's just the reality of it all.

Personally, I'm quite put out by Ghostcrawler's article. It only demonstrates the hubris that has consumed the Wow development team. Thanks for the lesson on how games are made, dude. Now listen to us to hear how they are played.


I wonder if you guys do pay attention to third party crititcs and reviewers as much as us. Now they don't give much better views but they essentially are us in part and say a recent popular one is "yahtzee" in Zero Punctuations review of Cata. Now they don't give much new but if anything reinforce what people here have said

If u ask me its exactly how I feel about the game, the time, the grind, the numbers.

Or perhaps Nerfnow.com recent comic that is a spot on criticism, at least for me and others from what I saw.

Do you guys pay attention to this, not the best discussions and criticisms are pats on the back and telling you everything is perfect when it isn't and the next thing you know somebody's got a rope around their neck. If there is a problem as hot head or abrupt as people may sound its probably 10x better than a thank you post or a foot kissing one. I am one of the guys who canceled my account and play vindictus, and SC2 only cause some RL friends play and look forward and waiting till the 2011 MMOs come out.

I have expressed my concerns for the last 3 years actively posting its not nice having all previous work being turned to dust with the deletion of the old site but still I found little of my issues and concerns addressed since BC times that were my concerns.

Being the one who brought the issue about CC up in blizzcon in person and knew for example months ago it would be an issue finally months into the game you guys are making changes to it. Point being even if issues get addressed its usually so freaking late into the time frame it just throws off players had gotten used to some mechanics. But I was done chasing the carrot so I canceled, a person like me doesn't have one issue when I was prompted on why I canceled it was a long list of them large or minor.

I had no prob with GC's remarks(and agree with 80-90% of them) he just made the issue seem as if it was only two sides wanting easy or harder which isn't the case by far.
Edited by Crankey on 1/20/2011 8:12 PM PST
85 Worgen Death Knight
2895
I just attempted heroic ToT for the first time as a tank. on one hand, I want to scream, what the hockey sticks were you thinking when you added mechanics that weren't even in regs to practice on to heroic mode?. sure interrupts is nice and handy, but annoying when you're trying to kite Naz'jar out of geysers and poison clouds while being the only one who can interrupt shock blasts. and Even if the group makes it past the first phase, the casters with boosted chain lighting is a little myopic.

on the other, I learned something. I may be ready for heroic trash, but I'm definitely not ready for a boss.

I'll reattempt after I get all my cata reps to exalted, reforge, and get my professions up, then I'll see if that makes a world of difference in my survivability.

I see where Ghost wants us to be, but at the same time, it's like 2 baby steps and a giant leap. the baby steps is leveling and regular dungeons, the giant leap is when you finally break the ilevel req for heroics. we're missing a step or something here.

maybe the high end reg dungeons need to give us a bit more hand up, like maybe blue ilevel 340's items. and rep gains definitely needs to be boosted a bit more. 15 per trash, 20 per heroic trash is reasonable. I also think that the CDs on interrupts should definitely be reevaluated. how come Dks and shamans can have 6-10 sec interrupts while everybody else only has 20 secs or more on their CDs?
Edited by Asmodeux on 1/20/2011 8:12 PM PST
85 Human Warlock
8135
I honestly don't understand what the controversy is about. Just about every piece of gear I currently have, came from PUG heroics. Yes, the queue took a while, but I got geared up enough for one of the best guilds on my server to give me a shot at making their regular raiding group. I don't play that much any more, hell some days (like today) I get busy and don't get my daily heroic in. They really are not that hard, and are really not that time consuming. I've had some bad groups that failed miserably, but for the most part they go relatively smoothly. Chances are that if you are predominantly experiencing what you perceive to be "bad groups", the issue might be your play, not the play of the other four people in the group.
86 Human Paladin
7145
make sure you are interrupting as a healer i've noticed that most problems can be fixed if the group is interrupting
100 Human Warrior
11845
I don't think Ghostcrawler's tone was wrong at all, the dungeons are seriously not hard at all. Just today I did every boss in Halls of Origination, with a decently geared but not overgeared group (it was a full pug btw, no guildies/anyone from my server). With a little CC and co-ordination, it was pretty smooth (although all those bosses made it a long run). Every boss took, at most, a couple attempts to get down.

I think some players just want to zerg content wrath style, and so when ANYONE says "Actually, could you try using a little CC?" they throw a hissy fit and yell "don't tell me how to play!".

TL, DR: Don't nerf heroics!

85 Night Elf Death Knight
9260
I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this. After all the complaints about the mechanics of Tol Barad in the PvP forums from both factions, we were essentially told that it was they way they wanted it when they designed it and they weren't going to make any substantial changes to it. So, on Bloodhoof as on many other servers, Tol Barad will never change hands. Not only because of the way it is designed but because people on the attacking faction have stopped playing it all together.

Therefore your statgement below is full of holes. #1 you haven't pleased anyone with Tol Barad and #2 you have told us to either like it or lump it because it isnt going to change.

01/20/2011 6:48 PMPosted by Zarhym


He wants to see the tone of the debate changed so we can work together to make this a better game, so it's really unfortunate when you post as though he's throwing the naughty finger in your face. His post was not written from a place of hubris. Those who would take it that way probably just fundamentally disagree with the current design philosophy. But only two things are true in this case: 1) we will never please everyone with our design, and 2) we will never stop listening to our players.
85 Orc Death Knight
7050
01/20/2011 6:37 PMPosted by Kierakasha
Who's ready for Old Republic?


Who's ready for Aion?


Who's ready for DC Universe?


Who's ready for Hello Kitty Island Adventure II?


Revisited that for you.
100 Human Rogue
5045
Deleted.
Edited by Anníka on 3/9/2011 10:34 AM PST
90 Tauren Paladin
11200
01/20/2011 7:59 PMPosted by Mop
Drakeld wrote: "There can be a balance. I remember when certain dungeons in vanilla basically gave you a core dungeon raiding set. As you progressed through harder and harder dungeons you were able to replace that set with T1, then T2 and so forth. Almost all dungeons has some type of rep gain built into them, whether this was through the wear of a trinket or collecting bijous etc. I don't see why normal dungeons cannot be done this way."

I just want to point out that this is wrong. In Vanilla each class only had one dungeon set, and itemization was terrible until Dire Maul (which had no set items). Tiers beyond 1 all came from raids.

Vanilla had a lot going for it (mainly that it was exciting and new and nobody knew what they were doing), but smooth gear progression was NOT one of those things. Imagine running Stratholme 60 times because your pants just won't drop, but there is no other option if you can't raid. Hell, I was in a guild that had Ragnaros on farm for about a year, and I never got his dagger or those damned bloodfang pants. :P

Actually... that seems similar to how people are saying things are now. Would it be so bad if normal bosses gave JP?


TBC was like this too.

Was trying to get Heroic-Ready back then (which is why I am so vocal now, I am having very BAD sessions of deja-vu in which I am remembering very UNfond memories of the game, to a time I nearly quit, back in TBC).

I played a Warrior tank. Well, I tried to play a Warrior tank.

I was a late-comer, I reached Lv70 about the time of The Black Temple's release. I did everything I could to get geared up, but I hit that Brick Wall known as the "Normal Dungeon Lottery", in which the only way to progress your character involved praying for the right drops from the right mobs.

For example, I ran Shadow Labs 8 times.

Zero Murmur's Shoulder drops.

If it hadn't been for SWP, I would have never gotten into Karazhan; their Sword and Shield made me barely good enough for Karazhan off-tank.

I joined a small backwater "just starting out" raiding guild, and we killed Moroes 3 times before 3.0 went live, and failed another 3 attempts, so that's 6 runs of Karazhan before 3.0 went live.

Plate Tank item drops: zero.

Making it so that you have to play the Lottery to gear your character up is a terrible way to do things.

That is obsolete and should not be a part of WoW's main gearing method, especially not when better systems (JP) have been invented.

Normals need to give at least some JP, and there need to be dailies somewhere (Tol Barad!) that give 333 gear, and there should be a full suit of 333 or better scattered across the rep vendors instead of 3-4 pieces only.

Don't force us to play the RNG Lottery to gear up our characters. That is so 2005. Nobody enjoys doing that. Nobody enjoys running (x dungeon here) to kill (y boss here) hoping he will drop (z item here) and praying that you actually win the roll on it.

Edit: Oh, and BTW, I'm sick of seeing tanks (or healers) drop in normals because they killed a boss and it didn't drop the specific item they were looking for. That is really getting on my nerves.
Edited by Migina on 1/20/2011 8:21 PM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
5585
Actually, I do have one problem with the blog. I can't find it anymore. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've tried every link from worldofwarcraft.com and can't find a link anywhere to the blogs, and searching for ghostcrawler doesn't work at all.
87 Dwarf Shaman
8795
Blizzard has said 1000x times that all of their employees love to play world of warcraft...

aka blizzard makes the game for their employees and then lets either people play for the money.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3475
what the hockey sticks were you thinking when you added mechanics that weren't even in regs to practice on to heroic mode?


They were probably thinking about every other heroic design that has ever existed. Ever. Heroics have things that normals don't (Phoenix in Tol'vir - or most if not all of ICC)
100 Night Elf Druid
9840
01/20/2011 6:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
He wants to see the tone of the debate changed so we can work together to make this a better game,

really?
then stop with the rollercoaster sledgehammer nerf/buff cycle that just ends up turning everyone against each other.
I've quit the game...the bad has finally outweighed the good.
90 Draenei Paladin
13260
H HoO is one of the easier ones by far. Other than Rajh's jump, I can't think of any zero-margin mechanics. The only issue that can arise is having enough dps for adds with the portals and the seeds.
100 Human Paladin
13870
01/20/2011 6:11 PMPosted by Aurene
Personally, I'm quite put out by Ghostcrawler's article. It only demonstrates the hubris that has consumed the Wow development team. Thanks for the lesson on how games are made, dude. Now listen to us to hear how they are played.


What hubris? I along with many others think it's great. Finally heroics are meant to be heroic, to have some challenge rather than mindless 20 min aoe fests back in WotLK.

A blue read this, so I would like to propose bringing back the heroic keys from Burning Crusade. People like the OP are not willing to get better before attempting heroics. And they then blame Ghostcrawler for their own incompetence. Will you also ask for nerfs because you can't beat any bosses in raids?

Bring back heroic keys, force them to do the normal dungeon 100 times before they unlock heroic mode. Blizzard already gave us more freedom by letting us decide when to step into heroics, but since some people abuse it, take away that freedom.
I have not had time to run a lot of heroics, or do much raiding this expac, or even run the dungeons on regular. So when I go into a heroic I am prepared for it to be uber hard, and I am always surprised at how easy most of the fights really are.
I read the qq on the forums and honestly instead of trolliif people would spend time learning the fights and working on improving their characters instead of trolling the forums they wouldn't have this problem.
I'm sorry you think heroics are hard, but they just arent. Get a group of friends together if you hate pugging and just work on the fights learning them together it's fun, talking in vent with your guild, and running heroics.
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