Ghostcrawlers article on dungeons

85 Draenei Shaman
3835
01/20/2011 9:30 PMPosted by Jile
See this toon? full resto 346 gear + epics.

I quit heaing. forever.

I got all the gear and healing was still terrible. The difference between a good healer and a bad healer is tiny.

I am worthless, I am powerless, I am stressed.

Yes WotLK was healing spam, but you know what I did MATTERED.

You're horrible at healing then.

I find it quite hilarious I come back to WoW after /ragequitting the snooze-fest that was Wrath and I see a bunch of whinny people that never ONCE stepped foot in old Raiding UBRS or BWL. One shot mechanics have been around since Vanilla (Living bomb anyone?) and they made DAMN SURE you weren't half-arsed healing/dpsing/tanking that raid.

I have 0 trouble keeping my group alive as long as everyone does their ROLE and is AWARE of their surroundings.
85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
What amazes me about all of this is just how short a memory the general playerbase has. Anyone else remember just how many complains BC normal mode instances got because they were over tuned? Anyone else remember just how complaints BC heroic modes got because they were even more over tuned than normal modes? What nobody in this thread seems to understand, in the first few pages at least (yes, I quit reading the QQfest after the top of page 4), is that LK instances and raids being as easy as they were was a direct result of the community feedback from Burning Crusade. Most people wanted easier instances than BC for the next expansion and when they got what they wanted, they didn't want what they'd been given. Lich King instances and raids left people asking for something more difficult and at least moderately challenging. Now that Cataclysm has delivered on what people asked for, they don't want what they've been given.

Why don't people want what they have now? Any number of reasons exist I'm sure but I'll point out a few of the more common ones I see in my battlegroup.

1) Learning how to CC effectively is difficult, painful and not without some considerable expense.
2) Not blasting everything in sight as soon as the tank pulls is, apparently, a completely foreign concept to the average dps player.
3) Not just spamming their biggest heal to keep everyone topped off at all times is something healers are still learning how to do.
4) Not breaking what little effective crowd control does exist is something tanks and dps are all still learning how to manage.
5) Situational awareness is a stone cold killer.

The sad truth is that the average player, and that means most of the people commenting in this thread, have the situational awareness of a g@%@!fruit in an instance. You stand in fire; you miss - or never even try - interrupts; you stand in front of mobs with directional AE (cleave, breath, etc) and expect healers to just heal thru like they could in Lich King. Guess what, the days of healers carrying poorly played dps are over. The days of tanks carrying poorly played dps are over. The days of well played dps not needing a tank or healer for heroics are over. Wake up and pay attention or by all means, do as Ghostcrawler suggested and go play something else that doesn't expect you to know your role and be effective in the use of your given abilitys.
Edited by Grymgroeth on 1/20/2011 9:43 PM PST
85 Undead Warrior
3480
a-holes? really? Did you actually read Ghostcrawler's post?
Edited by Misanthropes on 1/20/2011 9:49 PM PST
85 Dwarf Death Knight
6145
01/20/2011 6:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
. But only two things are true in this case: 1) we will never please everyone with our design, and 2) we will never stop listening to our players.


i for one do not wish this game to return to its aoe-tastic form that Wrath was. However with that being said i think you guys have the scaling all wrong. Vanilla wow was decently forgiving if you fudged something up, BC was a little less but since you knew what was going to happen you could prepare for it, and wrath was just total crap. having to wait on bosses to finish their mechanics because the dps was so retarded was not fun except for the ones who tried to blow up anub'arak before he could submerge more than twice. so imo you guys should have tried to find a happy medium and while i salute you for trying you didnt quite get there

you want to teach people to learn mechanics that your dev team came up with, i understand that, however you cant expect them to learn anything when the gear they are provided (at the start of this exspansion) isnt good enough to outlast 1 or 2 mistakes. "standing in the fire" for 1-2 extras seconds and its a wipe. i fully believe people should be aware of their surroundings but there has to be room for error or the casual gamer becomes frustrated and the game becomes unfun for them because instead of actually experiencing the encounter they're paying attention to a mod/add-on because if they mess up once theyre likely going to have to start all over again

i personally dont care about pve in this game in the least bit. i dont care about the purple pixels that drop from bosses, i play this game to have fun with the friends ive been playin with for 6 years. i dont mind spending 2+ hours in a heroic dungeon to get a piece of gear that is marginally better than the normal version because i can adapt and overcome, but a majority of your playerbase either cant, or wont, and if theyre the ones signing the checks i might listen just a tad closer.

tl:dr version - im happy with the game, thank you for youre hard work. however i think that a majority of your player base is not happy when they are limited to only playing 2-4 hours a day (thats a stretch for the casual im sure) and them spending the entirety in one instance
85 Draenei Shaman
3835
01/20/2011 9:32 PMPosted by Reasons
I no longer do heroics outside of the guild, 40 minutes queue is bad enough, having to suffer arrogant, incompetent and mean players makes it intolerable. Still, even with a guild run we wipe couple times per heroic, especially when class combination isn't ideal. This should not be happening.

As to raiding... its soul-crushingly inaccessible for our guild. While we were tackling hard modes first in Ulduar then in ICC, this expansion we are getting nothing but wipes and zero raid kills.


Raiding isn't soul-crushingly hard, my guild Downed Magmaw Wednesday night. Ya we wiped a few times (and a certain paladin ran off the ledge twice, which we thought on purpose for comedic relief) but we downed it. Part of doing new things is learning how to do the fights and learning how to, and this next part is the secret of Cata, AVOID DAMAGE.
90 Blood Elf Priest
8850
01/20/2011 9:39 PMPosted by Biyoin
See this toon? full resto 346 gear + epics.

I quit heaing. forever.

I got all the gear and healing was still terrible. The difference between a good healer and a bad healer is tiny.

I am worthless, I am powerless, I am stressed.

Yes WotLK was healing spam, but you know what I did MATTERED.

You're horrible at healing then.

I find it quite hilarious I come back to WoW after /ragequitting the snooze-fest that was Wrath and I see a bunch of whinny people that never ONCE stepped foot in old Raiding UBRS or BWL. One shot mechanics have been around since Vanilla (Living bomb anyone?) and they made DAMN SURE you weren't half-arsed healing/dpsing/tanking that raid.

I have 0 trouble keeping my group alive as long as everyone does their ROLE and is AWARE of their surroundings.


I didn't see her say that her party was wiping. She said she wasn't enjoying it.

I see her point - I don't really enjoy having to cast multiple big heals just to fill up a health bar. Doesn't mean my group members are dying on me - it's a personal preference. I'd rather my big heal cost a metric butt-ton of mana but heal the guy to almost full in one shot.
62 Blood Elf Warlock
880
01/20/2011 9:38 PMPosted by Sweepthelegg
we pay them to not be a-holes
false. Granted, some of Blizzard's funds may me allocated towards public relations (or 'advertising'), but I would find it hard to believe that the developers' salaries come out of the public relations budget.
85 Draenei Priest
9520
01/20/2011 9:40 PMPosted by Sophnel
Oh but you are! Just by doing nothing you are stating that very fact! Here's another fact for you guys. This game is now a long boring hard chore that most don't want to do anymore. Can you guys not see now that the very "challenging" and "awesome" new things that you have put into this game are the self same things that have just sucked the fun right out of it?
I mean really, you can't see this happening right in front of your eyes?
/shakes head.


Ummmm.. many people are having fun? Maybe just limit the over-the-top pathos to your own situation and leave the generalizations out of it.

PS: Fact still does not mean what you think it means.
Edited by Liore on 1/20/2011 9:43 PM PST
85 Orc Death Knight
4025
oh noes! heroics are hard and we actually have to pay attention!

Seriously guys, this isn't the end of wotlk, get over it. You cant just run head long into 4 mobs without proper use of CC anymore and you need to actually pay attention to boss effects/mechanics. Why is this such a hard concept for a large portion of the community?

I've had my fair share of wipe fests in heroics, but i never for a moment thought that it was too hard.



85 Human Warlock
7065
01/20/2011 9:37 PMPosted by Raeln
The point stands - you will not be prepared for mechanics, C and D, no matter how many times you practice the normal boss fight - because, they will never be present anywhere except in the heroic. Thus attunements will be completely useless, except to familiarize the player with the zone map and mechanics A and B.

As it stands as well, for someone jumping into heroics with the RDF system while undergeared is not something many people would recommend against, especially if you are having issues with learning the content. People are asking for more JP from normal dungeons, well then Blizzard has to find a number of JP that doesnt make farming normal dungeons for JP the most efficient way while still suiting the needs of those players who are sitting in that gap that doesnt last long. Adding additional abilities to bosses in heroic modes is part of what makes them heroic modes.
85 Blood Elf Warlock
6230
01/20/2011 9:28 PMPosted by Kaniget
I'm seriously kind of shocked by the number of people that think Heroics are soul-crushingly difficult.


It's not that they are soul crushingly difficult for a lot of us. It's that even if we are skilled we are at the mercy of a dungeon over-tuned for 4 other regular random people.

I'm not raiding at the moment, but I did through the 2nd half of Wrath- doing most all of the Wrath bosses, killing LK, 11/12 HM, blah blah blah. I'm used to dealing with challenge. I can adjust on the fly and get the job done. This means little to nothing if the four others aren't at least average in skill.

I could go back into a raiding guild, my old guild for one, and have pretty decent access to content. But, I don't want to raid right now. I want to log-in, play on whatever toon I feel like, do a couple dungeons, then goto sleep. I'll try a heroic if I'm feeling froggy and like I can deal with the absurdities of random groups. If not, I'll log off or play a lowbie alt.

I imagine there are a lot of players like myself out there- people with a random or sporadic play time, people who are skilled but don't want a scheduled or guild directed experience. I don't expect the same rewards as the people that put in more hours and such, as I did last year. But, give me something. Throw me a bone.

As it stands, raiders and such get regulars, heroics, and raids. Casuals, even skilled ones, get a handful of regulars that are not even worth our time. That's the soul crushing part- not that a boss fight is challenging, but that it's easy to invest 2- 3 hours with nothing to show for it and with the knowledge that the next attempt is likely to be the same.
Edited by Eolas on 1/20/2011 9:49 PM PST
83 Blood Elf Death Knight
4415
01/20/2011 9:27 PMPosted by Misanthropes
Again, heroics are by no means mandatory.


Yes, they are mandatory if you intend to see content. Not hard modes, but any content beyond 5-mans. Raiding was accessible and now isn't. That is a major problem. If there are not multiple PuG raids forming on a nightly basis there is a severe issue with the design.
90 Blood Elf Priest
8850
01/20/2011 9:45 PMPosted by Oniangel
The point stands - you will not be prepared for mechanics, C and D, no matter how many times you practice the normal boss fight - because, they will never be present anywhere except in the heroic. Thus attunements will be completely useless, except to familiarize the player with the zone map and mechanics A and B.

As it stands as well, for someone jumping into heroics with the RDF system while undergeared is not something many people would recommend against, especially if you are having issues with learning the content. People are asking for more JP from normal dungeons, well then Blizzard has to find a number of JP that doesnt make farming normal dungeons for JP the most efficient way while still suiting the needs of those players who are sitting in that gap that doesnt last long. Adding additional abilities to bosses in heroic modes is part of what makes them heroic modes.


Giving JP to normal bosses only circumvents the issue.

If Blizzard isn't going to include all the mechanics, in just light-mode, on the normal version bosses - then they better pay some developers overtime to begin constructing some UI elements to convey these abilities to the players through the game interface so they know what to expect going in.
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