Holy pally nerf, bad way to fix a bad problem

85 Human Paladin
3440
01/24/2011 8:42 PMPosted by Toxcat
first of all - not all helms have meta gems - even 333 item level headpiece's that are crafted or dropped, second of all your gauging me on a meta gem slot I have not filled just because I got the helm and hour and a half ago and have not done it yet. The enchants I can understand, but it still has everything to do with progression whether you think so or not. Don't deviate from the subject matter which isn't about me like I said in my original post. Feel free to collect other instances and testimonials from players having the same trouble as I, if its that vague for you to identify.


You elected to not use a Meta gem in a helm with a Meta gem

If you're using a helm without a Meta, you're not properly equipped for Heroics.

Gemming and enchanting your gear isn't "progression", it's an expected minimum for Heroics. If you're too lazy to do it, go run regulars, your gear is fine for those.

Other players that are just as bad or lazy as you are unconvincing to me as far as suggesting that there's a problem with Pallies. Again, I've had no trouble with content appropriate for my gear level, nor have other competent Paladins. Incompetent ones are struggling though.
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85 Human Paladin
4760
stop being bads and learn to heal

stop spamming flash

judge every 12 seconds

oh look, everyones alive
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5730
I healed conclave before I could queue for heroics (i.e. < 329 ilvl), so what makes you think that a 10% increase in mana for 3 spells is all doom and gloom.

If you're ooming in heroics, gem/reforge and where applicable enchant for spirit and int. Once you have enough regen, go for other stats.

Alternatively, L2P.
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85 Human Paladin
6135
Meh.. I have been expecting some adjustments. There is no way they are going to buff Resto Shamen since they appear to be about where the blues want healing. But the river of tears from them about holy paladins has been revolting. You would think we were sleeping with their mom for all the bitterness. So be it.

I am betting the adjustments will be partially made up for in the Divine Plea fix.. I just wish they would take the stupid MS effect off it or at least tone it down. A 50% penalty to healing is ridiculous. I will probably be casting fewer holy lights, but it already healed for such a low amount that .. meh.. Whatever. I also never cast Flash anymore unless I am looking for the rapid Divine Light cast buff. I would never cast it otherwise. In addition, divine radiance is too weak most of the time and Light of Dawn is a joke to use in a 5 man except after a fight..

Shock, Judgement, Word of Glory and Divine Light are my bread and butter spells. I base this assessment on the current thoughput and efficiency requirements for the things I am healing. None of these changes will affect that.

I am in average 333 iLevel gear and can do the regular dungeons easily; I usually end up with significant mana left over on those fights. It just takes forever to accumulate Justice Points and Faction Rep. in regular instances.

At my gear level and skill, Heroics are a real challenge. They are potentially do-able if I have several hours and am in a really decent party (Read: Guild run with Vent). I am still learning most of these fights though and LfG PuG's are just not viable at all.

It looks like I may be out of luck for Raiding this winter.. (We have too many geared healers in my guild!) so I need to figure out how you get better gear without running heroics on a regular basis. Frankly, the options remind me of gearing a prot warrior in early BC.. Painful.

Long story short, I don't see these changes as a huge hit for holy paladins that work to maximize holy power procs for mana free heals. Your mileage my vary though.

Desiflint, Paladin for Life

*Edit: I missed the Divine Light mana increase last night. Increasing the mana cost of Divine Light AND Holy Light is going to hurt somewhat. Early in the gearing cycle, mana can be tight for paladins.. I would not have finished some of those five man fights that were close in 318 gear. hmm..

I assume this change was made to address raid healing, where there is more regen available.
Edited by Desiflint on 1/25/2011 7:33 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6985
Honestly i dont see this as a huge issue at all.

Heroics will suffer somewhat, cc will remain important and we will need to drink a little more. But im also looking at the patch notes and it seems to have nerfed some of the encounters. Im not sure I haven’t played the PTR so its an assumption.

As far as raids go. We will need to coordinate better on mana regen cool downs. IE priests hym, or shams totem. And every boss ive down ( which isn’t to much Argaloth,Magmaw
Omnitron Defense System, and Conclave of Wind) they all seem to have some sort of cool down period to use to regen. We will just need to capitlize one it more then we have. For example, im sure some of us may not be wacking magmaw when hes on the spike with seal of insight for the 4 percent mana regen chance.

When all comes down to it, its more about the group progressing..not our overall numbers. If priests, shams, druids, or even another holy pally needs to pick up the slack for a little bit so be it.

look at the bright side we get rebuke! Arena’s just got a little more fun.

After all we are paladins. We learn to adapt to any situation and overcome.
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85 Human Paladin
3440
I healed conclave before I could queue for heroics (i.e. < 329 ilvl), so what makes you think that a 10% increase in mana for 3 spells is all doom and gloom.

If you're ooming in heroics, gem/reforge and where applicable enchant for spirit and int. Once you have enough regen, go for other stats.

Alternatively, L2P.


I'm sitting on about 2500 spirit and don't always get the chance to judge on cd. Trash I rarely have issues with, it's bosses where the tank's getting rocked and people are getting hit with things I have problems with. I have my suggestions for "fixing" the "op pally" "problem" elsewhere.

I don't OOM on trash. I OOM on boss fights. Usually not till the last part of the fight, and it's never wiped any of my groups, but Jesus throw those of us that aren't raiding a damned bone and fix the problem where it lies and not in Holy Light's mana cost. It's supposed to be an efficient heal.


If you're not able to judge pretty near to on cooldown your group is doing things badly wrong.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5035
first of all - not all helms have meta gems - even 333 item level headpiece's that are crafted or dropped, second of all your gauging me on a meta gem slot I have not filled just because I got the helm and hour and a half ago and have not done it yet. The enchants I can understand, but it still has everything to do with progression whether you think so or not. Don't deviate from the subject matter which isn't about me like I said in my original post. Feel free to collect other instances and testimonials from players having the same trouble as I, if its that vague for you to identify.


You elected to not use a Meta gem in a helm with a Meta gem

If you're using a helm without a Meta, you're not properly equipped for Heroics.

Gemming and enchanting your gear isn't "progression", it's an expected minimum for Heroics. If you're too lazy to do it, go run regulars, your gear is fine for those.

Other players that are just as bad or lazy as you are unconvincing to me as far as suggesting that there's a problem with Pallies. Again, I've had no trouble with content appropriate for my gear level, nor have other competent Paladins. Incompetent ones are struggling though.


So everyone who is not as well informed, doesn't do what YOU consider to be competent is incompetent? Your not providing any solutions to anything, go troll somewhere else, there are actually people here trying to provide much more generous advice than yours and there is no need to be disrespectful. I would expect more from the community if this is your idea of responding to posts.
Edited by Toxcat on 1/24/2011 9:10 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
3440
01/24/2011 9:07 PMPosted by Toxcat


You elected to not use a Meta gem in a helm with a Meta gem

If you're using a helm without a Meta, you're not properly equipped for Heroics.

Gemming and enchanting your gear isn't "progression", it's an expected minimum for Heroics. If you're too lazy to do it, go run regulars, your gear is fine for those.

Other players that are just as bad or lazy as you are unconvincing to me as far as suggesting that there's a problem with Pallies. Again, I've had no trouble with content appropriate for my gear level, nor have other competent Paladins. Incompetent ones are struggling though.


So everyone who is not as well informed, doesn't do what YOU consider to be competent is incompetent? Your not providing any solutions to anything, go troll somewhere else, there are actually people here trying to provide much more generous advice than yours and there is no need to be disrespectful. I would expect more from the community if this is your idea of responding to posts.


Using gems and enchants doesn't require a hell of a lot of information.

I'd bet anyone that can find their way to these forums is capable of finding enchants on the AH.

I actually have provided a solution to your problem - gem and enchant your gear. Further advice would be to judge on cooldown, use HS on cooldown, make liberal use of your free heals, and treat Hand of Sacrifice as a tank CD and use it regularly, and use healing cooldowns regularly as well. Set your gear up correctly and do those things, and you'll have no trouble.

Instead, your gear clearly shows us all that you're not even willing to try. If you won't try, of course you won't succeed.
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85 Human Paladin
3440
01/24/2011 9:10 PMPosted by Arcata
If you're not able to judge pretty near to on cooldown your group is doing things badly wrong.

Have you ever done the last boss in SFK in a PuG with no curse removal?

I'd like to see you get time to judge when there's three cursed bullets out because no one interrupted it.

Have you ever done Admiral Ripsnarl in a full on melee PuG? I'd like to see you get a chance to judge on CD during the time he's out while your 130k hp Druid tank is getting rocked because the guy hits like a gd truck. Keep in mind I had no problems healing this tank the entire rest of the run. Ripsnarl sucks. Vanessa also sucked but that's a different one.

PuG groups aren't perfect. No, the heroics don't need to be made easier. However I should have some type of leeway. If I MUST judge every CD to keep mana up on a heroic boss fight, then I'm either undergeared or the outgoing damage is entirely too high somehow. I shouldn't be able to carry the group, but there also shouldn't be any kind of factor where wasting that GCD on judgment is going to put my group in jeopardy. Currently there is however. So I don't always get the chance to.

I'm sorry I don't do only guild only runs and thus never EVER have this problem... nevermind that I have even lower tolerance for guild runs and I always end up with at least one moron in those too.


Yes, I've done SFK with no Curse removal and it's miserable. No removal and no interrupts would be "groups doing something wrong".

I've only tanked VC, so I can't speak to that. The damage seemed trivial to me, but my tank set is pretty decent and I keep the targets on me and blow CDs regularly, so my perspective is irrelevant.

I barely even have a guild - go ahead and look for yourself if you don't believe me. Most of my runs are queuing alone, and I occasionally go with a friend or two. I'm not saying everything is always easy-peasy, but I feel like I have plenty of leeway to make up for occasional mistakes. I can't fix the proverbial guy in the fire, or people that refuse to interrupt Ashbury, but it's not so bad.

I don't think we really disagree though... so meh.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5730
How in god's name are you ooming on boss fights with 2500 spirit?

I guess it really comes down to this: If everyone in your group is playing properly, you're healing properly and you're still ooming, then either a) You need more gear, b) The Tank needs more gear, c) The DPS need better gear or d) All of the above.

The new healing model doesn't account for people standing in fire, getting cleaved, not using cooldowns when they're meant to, and being carried. There is some leeway here, as it is unreasonable to expect everyone to play perfectly, but gone are the wrath days when you can heal through any mistakes made by your group.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
6000
I usually do my best to balance keeping people alive and keeping mana up, but I'm still a bit set in the WOTLK fashion of being able to spam heals on the tank.

The 10% increase will drain my mana a good deal faster, but I'm likely to adjust in due time. I've started to raid a bit, or at least nearly killed Halfus in the Bastion of Twilight, and I plan on improving from there on.

I don't look forward to it, but I'll suck it up and deal with it regardless.
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90 Human Paladin
0
01/24/2011 6:41 PMPosted by Toxcat
!!!!!!THESE ARE PTR NOTES ONLY!!!!!

Paladin (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

* Divine Light mana cost has been increased by approximately 10%.
* Flash of Light mana cost has been increased by approximately 10%.
* Holy Light mana cost has been increased by approximately 10%.

I will not playing my pally after the patch if this happens, you have heard it here first. I am just gearing and every fight I go OOM. Just because you observe top raid level healing and notice holy pallies are leading the healing charts in top raiding guilds that raid consistently, does not mean you should necessarily nerf the pallies but BUFF the other classes such as Shamans and druids to become more desirable healers. I think the focus should be on the process and not the full geared up end result.

Also there was a comment made by a blue at some point (I can't find it exactly) saying that if anything, things will only get easier from here on in cataclysm as dev's have admitted to design mistakes and intend on improving. There have also been several posts on healing nerfs in regards to the challenges of healing from their perspective.

Also for the record, I utilize all of my cooldowns on boss fights and still get by barely, on some fights not so much which shows the difference in fight mechanics can make all the difference, such as the Alchemist in SFK compared to the Ripsnarl fight where your dps cannot take down the adds quick enough.

Any thoughts pally community?
(And I don't care if you call me bad or say you suck as a holy pally because its so easy blah blah blah, im an average player and an average raider. Im not pro.)


Well I feel we have enough tools for mana. I DO feel however we could use a few more defensive buffs, especially ones we can use on the tank.
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
5965
the only time I see my pug holy pallies having mana troubles is when they are undergeared, spamming flash, or dps are standing in fire for 5+ seconds
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3920
HMM 10% so in other words no real change. The DP buff balances it out.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6165
01/24/2011 7:54 PMPosted by Ryz
Instead of nerfing our numbers they nerfed our mana. It will work out alright in the end, no one is going to bench any paladins and we're still going to be fine healers. Clearly we're a bit too strong at the moment and this may have been the easiest fix.


Blizzard buffed Paladin heals in beta, the 10% increase mana cost is their way of reverting it without telling us they are reverting a buff.
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