Divine plea and whats wrong...

90 Human Paladin
6285
50% healing killed for mana back, only priest even have something similar with hymn, however their is significantly different (and more powerful) so don't bother mentioning it. Even after the next patch changes reducing it to 9 seconds and giving it 18% total mana back its still going to be bad. Mainly because its use requires timing a period of 9(15 currently) to not heal. Also blowing any CD during it like back in wrath is now just stupid, as CD's are needed to increase efficiency or throughput and using them on divine plea is costing you throughput and mana.

My suggestion, reduce mana gained from Seal of Insight judges. It's firstly a really annoying mechanic to judge every 8 seconds costing precious GCD's to be our regen mechanic. Its totally out of line with other mechanics in terms of cost to us to use and how much we have to use it. Instead, take the 50% healing reduction off divine plea, buff it accordingly and make judgement mana returns significantly weaker but still useful, so we can still use it to stretch our mana if we need, but for those times when wasting a global is life and death, and were already burning mana like mad, we don't have to worry about killing regen as well.

So to summarize, divine plea is clunky and not in lines with other mana regen mechanics as is judgement via seal of insight. My solution is to reduce mana regen via the judgement mechanic and remove the mortal strike debuff (old school 50%) off divine plea and buff it to the point where paladin mana back is at a lower peak level but higher average due to being less dependent on judgment.

Also while I'm dreaming why not strike the 10% mana cost hike on the ptr off and use the changing of the judgement and divine plea mechanic to balance it out.
Edited by Doomsyth on 1/27/2011 1:19 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11310
Stop complaining. It's been like this since the beginning of WotLK, they aren't going to change it now.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
Excuse me, they changed a hell of a lot from WotLK in terms of how paladins work, including massive changes to divine plea and seal of insight/wisdom. So why not change divine plea?
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100 Human Paladin
11510
just delete holy spec already.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
01/27/2011 2:11 AMPosted by Doomsyth
including massive changes to divine plea

01/27/2011 2:11 AMPosted by Doomsyth
So why not change divine plea?


lolwut


Go read the other Divine Plea QQ threads, making your own won't make us care more. You have so little Cata raid experience I doubt you know how to properly use Divine Plea in it's current state, and with the patch the state improves much much more.

Consider the cd on Innervate and the cd on Divine Plea.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
Its a strategic mana spell, you aren't meant to just use it on CD... that is why it is designed as is. They DID feel it was a little tough to use right now though and so they are reducing its duration and increasing its output slightly.

Just be happy we have it at all.
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01/27/2011 2:11 AMPosted by Doomsyth
Excuse me, they changed a hell of a lot from WotLK in terms of how paladins work, including massive changes to divine plea and seal of insight/wisdom. So why not change divine plea?

...they are? Shortening the duration by six seconds and increasing the default mana return from 10% to 12% are pretty substantial from my point of view. It's not hard to find seven seconds where you can skimp on healing in most encounters that might involve using plea. All it requires is timing.

I don't mind judging as long as I'm able to stand in range...which I normally am. And I can almost always afford the GCD without grief. It also makes it slightly less mindless. What you're petitioning for is more boring healing, getting rid of the few not really complicated but "different" things we have left. All I'm reading in your post is that you want there to be even less thinking required for healing.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 2:18 AMPosted by Jondoe
You have so little Cata raid experience I doubt you know how to properly use Divine Plea in it's current state, and with the patch the state improves much much more.


Just because I'm not downing 12/12 doesn't mean I don't know how to use divine plea, stop being so elitist as it adds nothing to the discussion. Also

01/27/2011 2:18 AMPosted by Jondoe
Consider the cd on Innervate and the cd on Divine Plea.


Consider the mana returned, rate of return(per second), and penalty to use in addition. For DP and innervate respectively:
18(15 current)/20
2%(2/3% currently)/2%
50% reduced healing/Nothing
2 min CD/ 3 min CD

Also this doesn't compare to priest shadow fiend, nor shamans mana totem (and yes shamans healing is bad right now)

Also I'm talking about changing the entire method of which paladins regain the mana by, rather than just the cd to which they have access to. As each class has differing methods of regen, I'm merely stating we should switch more of the regen to our plea rather than the judgement spells.

So next time please consider more than face value of what you're trying to talk about.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 2:24 AMPosted by Janaire
All I'm reading in your post is that you want there to be even less thinking required for healing.


Is healing mindless for the rest of the class's then? As none of them require consuming globals even 8 second or not healing as part of their mana back mechanics (priest hymns aside which our more than just personal mana regen tools as they increase maximum mana and are smart multi-target regen and they have a secondary more comparable mana regen CD).

The mechanics is clunky, it makes us different, but that doesn't mean its fun or smooth working. With blizzards plans to bring our healing throughput more back in line fixing regen mechanics might make nerfing throughput easier to take.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
Elitist? Hah, I'm honored. But no.

Sure, you know how to use Divine Plea in heroics, but you don't know how to use them in raids. Don't expect Blizzard to change a spell that will be mostly used in raids just so heroic runners can drink less.
If you don't heal during the time this spell is up, you obviously don't know how to properly use it.

Let me give you an example.

Nefarian 10 man normal. You have three phases.
Phase one you have to tank Onyxia and Nefarian while making sure the skeletons don't get hit by their shadow flame and eventually run out of energy and fall over (but for every hit they do they increase their speed and damage done). During that phase both tanks are getting hit by a lot of damage: Nef and Ony melee for upwards of 50k, their Shadowflame Breaths hit for 22,000 (AFTER resistance aura) 4 times. Onyxia's lightning can and should be avoided, so let's ignore that. If you push Nefarian to a 10% marker (90%, 80%, etc) he'll cast Electrocute on the entire raid, hitting for ~110k nature damage. Can you see how much healing as to be done in phase 1 alone? As a paladin healing one of the tanks you'll find yourself having to use Divine Light the most.
After Onyxia's dead you enter phase 2 where lava fills the room and you must jump onto one of the three platforms. On each of the platforms is a single mob that doesn't move and has no aggro table. Every few seconds they cast Blast Nova, this spell must be interrupted. The phase ends when all three mobs are dead. Throughout this phase Nefarian spits Shadowflame Barrage at a random player. This hits for roughly 20,000. You must use this phase as your regen phase, otherwise you'll run out of mana during phase 3. Once you get everyone topped off you pop Divine Plea and use Holy Light to keep the people on your platform healed.
Phase 3 is a lot like phase 1 except for a couple of things. 1) Onyxia is gone. 2) Nefarian spits Shadowflame Barrage at a location on the ground, this fire will restore the energy of the skeletons.

Of course, you should never pop Divine Plea during phase 1, and generally shouldn't pop Divine Plea during phase 3 unless absolutely necessary.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 2:50 AMPosted by Jondoe
Once you get everyone topped off you pop Divine Plea and use Holy Light to keep the people on your platform healed.


And you say I don't know how to use divine plea, first off if the healing is light enough you can get away with a 50% reduced holy light you could top them off, plea, and heal them afterwards as they would be in no risk of death, even if you managed to get 9 seconds of plea time off you would net out in mana gained.

The only proper way to use divine plea in combat is when you must be healing (i.e can't not plea for 8 seconds and cancel) but you can spend less than 150% mana gained from divine plea. Considering the mana gained from divine plea is around 16500 means you need to waste less than 24750 mana. This is at most 3 divine lights or 11 holy lights, which means if you could spam only holy light you would net gain, however if you could do that, you could easily get 8 seconds of plea time off and net out higher. For math regarding plea time its fairly simple, you only need to gain more than half the mana back to justify not spending twice as much mana to heal (total). I.E if it takes 8 holy lights to heal using plea, you only need to gain mana back for 4 of them and its better to plea then heal.

So to reiterate, there is no situation where you can spam holy light at 50% power and not be able to plea for 9 seconds without them dying. As this is only what 2.5(5 holy lights during with 1.8 sec cast time) holy lights would heal for (sub ~40k) if you were healing under the plea.

Edit: Actually divine plea tick time is 3 seconds, so you would need to wait 9 seconds. Adjusted numbers accordingly)
Edited by Doomsyth on 1/27/2011 4:16 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3025
01/27/2011 4:04 AMPosted by Doomsyth
first off if the healing is light enough you can get away with a 50% reduced holy light you could top them off, plea, and heal them afterwards as they would be in no risk of death


Wow, such ignorance.

Okay buddy, go do Nef (providing you make it there before 4.1) and do your strategy in phase 2. The damage IS NOT LIGHT! Sometimes the same person gets hit several times in a row (the barrage isn't a once every few seconds deal, it's constantly being thrown at people).

You're also trying to treat Divine Plea as a hard mana regen ability. In some cases, sure, but in most cases I've noticed it's more of a mana consumption dampener. This is good for light damage phases which can still turn ugly without any healing. Examples: Nef phase 2, Atramedes flight phase, Valiona and Theralion with Valiona on the ground casting Devouring Flame. If you've found a time in any boss where you don't have to heal for 8-15 seconds (save for Magmaw), please please please share it with me.

I don't even know why I'm trying to argue with you on this, you are complaining that Divine Plea is in a poor state for heroics and trying to make it out like that's the exact scenario that will be in raids.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 4:22 AMPosted by Jondoe
The damage IS NOT LIGHT!


01/27/2011 4:04 AMPosted by Doomsyth
So to reiterate, there is no situation where you can spam holy light at 50% power and not be able to plea for 9 seconds without them dying. As this is only what 2.5(5 holy lights during with 1.8 sec cast time) holy lights would heal for (sub ~40k) if you were healing under the plea.


As I said, you can't heal more than 40k in those 9 seconds under plea without using more expensive spells. So in other words the damage is sub 40k which to me is light. Oh and if its more, and you spend 1 divine light, you only need to plea 3 seconds, spend 2 divine lights, not using plea and just regular healing is more effective.

01/27/2011 4:22 AMPosted by Jondoe
ou are complaining that Divine Plea is in a poor state for heroics and trying to make it out like that's the exact scenario that will be in raids.


Never mentioned heroics, its actually totally OP in heroics as they're much more frequent section to use it in and damage is so light you don't need it anways. Been talking about raids the whole time, your ignorant "I'm elitist" attitude simply made you label it as such.

01/27/2011 4:37 AMPosted by Paladinwtf
Here, let's take a simple fight like Magmaw... I can go from 10% mana to 90%+ mana in ONE head to spike phase. Other Healers can't do that as good.


/facepalm

Divine plea gives you back 15% of your mana, thats it, no more. Whats giving you all that mana is probably judgement and seal of insight procs of melee swings procing more mana back. The latter which I'm suggesting be nerfed.
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85 Human Mage
3185
Another thing to shoot this in the foot lets look at healer cd's

Priest:
Divine hymm
Hymm of hope
shadow fiend
guardian spirit (holy)
pain suppression (disc)
power infusion (disc)
Power word barrier (disc)

Druid:
tree form
innervate
natures swiftness

Shaman:
Mana tide
natures swiftness
(heroism/bloodlust?)

paladin:
self bubble
physical bubble
divine plea
divine favor
wings
LoH
guardian of ancient kings

As far as cool downs go pallys have it SWEEEEEET with the exception of maybe disc priests, having to think about one of our cd's is hardly a chore, considering we already have a very simple healing system which is highly effective.
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 4:58 AMPosted by Flametwista
Another thing to shoot this in the foot lets look at healer cd's


Did you even read? This isn't about all cd's, its about shifting the mana regen mechanics of paladins from judgement with Seal of Insight to Divine Plea (a cd) to bring it more in line with other healing class cd's (innervate, shadow fiend, Mana tide[not too comparable]) in terms of our primary regen mechanics.
Edited by Doomsyth on 1/27/2011 5:08 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
01/27/2011 1:19 AMPosted by Doomsyth
It's firstly a really annoying mechanic to judge every 8 seconds costing precious GCD's to be our regen mechanic.


To each their own. Personally, I find it to be one of the more interesting aspects of playing a holy paladin.
Edited by Fionne on 1/27/2011 5:15 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
6285
01/27/2011 5:13 AMPosted by Fionne
To each their own. Personally, I find it to be one of the more interesting aspects of playing a holy paladin.


It does make for a unique aspect as I've said, but its too clunky and too much of our regen comes from it. I would prefer it to be more of a secondary regen mechanic where the difference between judging on cd, and every other wasn't 700+mp5

Edit: Wrong...

Edit 2: Bleh forgot to factor in cost of spell, reduces value by 1/3rd as the judgement cost 5% mana so its about 1465 mp5+ without buffs.
Edited by Doomsyth on 1/27/2011 7:24 AM PST
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85 Human Mage
3185
01/27/2011 5:06 AMPosted by Doomsyth
Another thing to shoot this in the foot lets look at healer cd's


Did you even read? This isn't about all cd's, its about shifting the mana regen mechanics of paladins from judgement with seal of insight to plea (a cd) to bring it more in line with other healing class cd's (innervate, shadow fiend, Mana tide[not too comparable]) in terms of our primary regen mechanics.


Maybe i didn't make my point clear, we have tonnes of cooldowns that give us throughput which no other class has as far as raw healing on demand pallys have got it made. not to mention our regen is solid in most cases if not better than other classes on fights where we can time in divine plea. removing that healing debuff would make divine plea just another button to push and have no tact or thought behind it. in other words we have other things to make up for 9 seconds of 50% healing, if its that big of a deal squeeze in a throughput cd to offset some of the healing debuff, wings is on a similar cd try that if its giving you trouble.
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85 Human Mage
3185
moving our regen mechanics away from things we have to actually think about is kinda silly, fixing a problem that isnt there and making something thats already kinda easy even easier is a bit sad.
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