Dentarg Alliance- WTF

85 Tauren Shaman
4460
i've been on this server since BC, and i can tell you for a fact that since you're even downing bosses its the best its ever been. you may think that its not that great since people seem to be leaving, but believe me, it is.
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85 Human Paladin
4745
I've been on this server since vanilla, and I can only assume that you would find it better for us due to the fact that you're speaking from a horde point of view, one which takes into consideration the easy factor for horde due to the ton of new players we have on alliance side which makes your jobs as horde a lot easier.

People leaving are the least of my concern, I refused to leave when there was NOBODY on the server. 8 people stood in Dalaran on the alliance side, 6 of them were Spartans. So people leaving this server does not phase me in the least, we were here before, we'll be here when it's over with because we know blizzard's tinkering won't ever fix anything, they'll just put band aids and leave it at that.

We downed bosses all through WotLK, raided regularly through BC, downing bosses, so I'm not quite sure how downing bosses translate to 'better' on the alliance side overall.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
RAR
2835
01/30/2011 1:46 PMPosted by Ðarkknight
As for you jimmyjon, perhaps you should try putting raid groups together using only what you have available to see the difficulty of putting together VIABLE raid groups. When you have 50 people hounding YOU to raid, with only maybe 15 of them being truly viable to put into a raid setting with any hopes of progression, let's see how well you do. Raid progression in cataclysm isn't wrath anymore, thus, you can't just throw 10 people together and go into a raid, without the right raid composition. I am just now getting enough players to fill only 2 full 10 man raid groups with anything remotely resembling a viable composition of players to have any hope of raid progression. So before you start casting stones, you might want to get out of that glass house, and instead of spewing such bs on the forums, how about you get to 85, get yourself geared, and then you can complain if you're not raiding, if you're viable to raid that is.


Totally.

I run a small guild, mostly just people I like a lot atm to hopefully do 10 mans soon.

We will. Once we aren't plagued by low levels and new players.

Look at EVERY guilds recruitment message: HEALS/CASTER DPS NEEDED FOR RAIDS!

We're so low on Heals it' nuts. I even see "Full on DKs" on a few different ones, as we are too.

I have about 5 people in guild who are viable, from intellect and current or obtainable gear levels, to raid. Maybe 7 or 8, but that's including too many Melee DPS and too many Tanks, but only 1 tank who only tanks, and another who doesn't have RaidReady Tanking gear yet. And even still, though they are plenty capable, a couple are new players who don't know what DBM is. They can learn fast, but there is SO much to teach!

It's not easy right now. I hope that the second tier of raiding will be better for Ally Dentarg with more people in the know. I've had idiots try lvl 60-80 raids wih 85s in their group and think that that's what real raids are like. Or they join up in a PUG raid I'll do for an achieve and 5 minutes in they are @%%**ing about how long its taking, "Wheres the gear? Wheres the boss??? GOGOGO" When they are standing there while 2-3 of us solo MC or 8 85s and 15 70s do Tempest.

New Players. At the beginning of a tier of raiding, a new expansion and completely new mechanics, makes things not easy. Give it a bit more time and we might be better off; I have met plenty of promising lowbies... I think... XD
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71 Troll Shaman
1450
How bout this, form an Alliance w/ another guild and run raids together?
Sadly my guild won't be raiding anytime soon so i'll probably pug. If you don't like the progression on this server next time roll a toon on an older server
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85 Orc Shaman
5775
01/28/2011 10:51 AMPosted by Nightris
Or go horde... and find a good guild.


i want that helm...
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85 Human Paladin
4745
That would never be an option to be considered.

I refuse to believe progression can't be made by alliance side on this server. I think all of our problems stem from a lack of serious, mature, reliable, dedicated raiders on the alliance side. The few that we do have, are spread out among all the guilds, and getting quite restless due to the lack of progression, thus, before we can begin progressing after finding a few more pieces to the puzzle, they're jumping guilds, or, jumping servers.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5765
The Alliance has seen its better days. Artifact, Impressive, Rebel Alliance, just to name a few were some of the best raiding guilds to come though this server. Pretty sure they gave the old IMHO a damn good run for their money before they high tailed it out. Even at the latter parts of wrath with Graveyard and Mafioso, though we were months behind we gave the Alliance something to take pride in. Sadly i just dont see the caliber of players here that once were. Even if we were to form one massive super guild and build 10m teams from that they wouldnt compare to the caliber of player that were in the mentioned guilds. Potential is there, is just a matter of teaching the new folks the raiding side of the game and gettin them in there to see fights.
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85 Human Paladin
4745
The caliber of player is not the issue. I've heard all the stuff about 'oh you gotta find raiders that already know how to raid and you gotta find players that are great or exceptional at what they do', and I'm here to tell you that is nothing but complete and utter nonsense. Any reasonably intelligent person can be taught how to raid if given enough time, however, time is the problem. Ours is society of instant gratification, this makes learning raid fights instant frustration to every person that has absolutely no patience what so ever. As long as you can get mature individuals without the ego problems and instant gratification problems into a raid group, and that group is a viable raid composition, a raid can be done. CoS proved this many times over when we went from absolutely no progression in wrath at all, (see the above statements about impatient people) to getting all the way to Lich King in 6 to 8 weeks time, with multiple 10 man groups. This was raiding only two nights a week, two hours a night, and most of the time, missing half or more of that raid schedule. I led no less then 7 different groups through ICC to Lich King personally, people that had not raided before, people that were new to the game but would listen and do what they were told. (another HUGE problem on the alliance side, it's difficult to listen when you don't shut your mouth long enough for other people to even be able to think) If alliance toons would take the very little time it takes to watch the fights just so they would know what to expect, raiding on the alliance side wouldn't be as hard as it is. Instant gratification is not something that non-hard core raiding individuals will experience without some type of time and effort researching, learning, studying the fights, studying their classes and characters and making sure that their toons are perfectly prepared for raiding. I have many many people, both in guild and out, that constantly whisper me for help with their characters. They don't want to put the time in to research it themselves. Anybody who isn't going to take the time to do their own research after being told where to research is not somebody that should be raiding, because they won't put the time in to do what is needed, they want it all handed to them. When these people figure out they're not going to get anywhere unless they put the effort in, we will all be much better off.
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85 Goblin Shaman
6985
02/12/2011 1:05 PMPosted by Ðarkknight
The caliber of player is not the issue. I've heard all the stuff about 'oh you gotta find raiders that already know how to raid and you gotta find players that are great or exceptional at what they do', and I'm here to tell you that is nothing but complete and utter nonsense. Any reasonably intelligent person can be taught how to raid if given enough time, however, time is the problem. Ours is society of instant gratification, this makes learning raid fights instant frustration to every person that has absolutely no patience what so ever. As long as you can get mature individuals without the ego problems and instant gratification problems into a raid group, and that group is a viable raid composition, a raid can be done. CoS proved this many times over when we went from absolutely no progression in wrath at all, (see the above statements about impatient people) to getting all the way to Lich King in 6 to 8 weeks time, with multiple 10 man groups. This was raiding only two nights a week, two hours a night, and most of the time, missing half or more of that raid schedule. I led no less then 7 different groups through ICC to Lich King personally, people that had not raided before, people that were new to the game but would listen and do what they were told. (another HUGE problem on the alliance side, it's difficult to listen when you don't shut your mouth long enough for other people to even be able to think) If alliance toons would take the very little time it takes to watch the fights just so they would know what to expect, raiding on the alliance side wouldn't be as hard as it is. Instant gratification is not something that non-hard core raiding individuals will experience without some type of time and effort researching, learning, studying the fights, studying their classes and characters and making sure that their toons are perfectly prepared for raiding. I have many many people, both in guild and out, that constantly whisper me for help with their characters. They don't want to put the time in to research it themselves. Anybody who isn't going to take the time to do their own research after being told where to research is not somebody that should be raiding, because they won't put the time in to do what is needed, they want it all handed to them. When these people figure out they're not going to get anywhere unless they put the effort in, we will all be much better off.


My eyes!
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85 Human Paladin
4745
sorry supernerd, didn't meant to rant on that long and cause your yes discomfort!!!
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85 Goblin Shaman
6985
02/12/2011 3:12 PMPosted by Ðarkknight
sorry supernerd, didn't meant to rant on that long and cause your yes discomfort!!!


It's alright. Just use paragraphs next time. =) I swear I read every line of that thing at least 3 times because I kept trying to find the next one! ^.^
Edited by Supernerd on 2/12/2011 8:30 PM PST
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5765
02/12/2011 4:02 PMPosted by Supernerd
It's alright. Just use paragraphs next time. =) I swear I rad every line of that thing at least 3 times because I kept trying to find the next one! ^.^


i thought the same thing.

And to say that the caliber of people isnt the issue is a big mistake. Look at the raiders from the 2 top ally guilds at the end of wrath, Mafioso and Graveyard (both of which have left). I've raided with both of these guilds many times and downed LK plenty of times on my hunter with them back in the day. Theres no way you can tell me that u can take 10 or 25 people and raise them to the caliber that we were.

Ive been on Dentarg a long time, pugged a lot on this toon in icc, and i know for a fact the players here are no where near as skilled as the people in those guilds mentioned above.

Not hating on you Dark, ive known you a long time but facts are facts boss man. :)
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85 Human Paladin
4745
So you'd like to bring facts into the equation at this point, ok, we can do that as well.

Fact: The caliber of some of those players in the guilds you mentioned are not as high as they themselves believe it to be.

Fact: Both of those guilds that you mentioned....couldn't do it with the 'caliber' players they had, and brought in kingslayers to finish the job. Not my bs, but words from the people in those guilds themselves that were perturbed about it not being able to do it without kingslayers.

Fact: Both of those guilds you mentioned had been raiding ICC a lot longer then CoS was, and in the short time I mentioned previously, we caught up to them, even without the 'caliber' of players those guilds had. We caught up and was able to consistantly get Lich King below 35% long before those two guilds brought in kingslayers from other realms or guilds, to finish the job.

The simple fact that we did this with several 10 man groups, not just the seven groups I led into ICC, but 2 other 10 man groups as well, full of players that some in those guilds you mentioned looked down upon, should tell you something, although, knowing you, you'd prefer to argue the point till you're blue in the face. So suffice it to say, my 'lower caliber' players, were able to catch up and threaten those 'high caliber' players of those 'high caliber raiding guilds' that you mentioned, with the possibility of downing the Lich King first on the alliance side in 10 man. Oh man how unfortunate that would have been had that happened.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5765
Graveyard Shift cheated a little bringing a superiorly (<--is that a word) geared fire mage to their 10m yes, but the players in the raid were more than competent enough to down LK on thier own.

As for Mafioso, well they beat IMHO to LK in 10m but do to some unfortunate circumstances outside of the guilds control had to abandon their attempt for server first 10m kill, which admitedly isnt as impressive as a 25m kill.

I never said CoS werent good players i simply stated i would rather have the players in those 2 guilds more, minus ego's.

And i dont really like to argue all that much. Im usually the first to help someone out with a spec or a rotation if i can. I cant tell you how many times ive had people far more geared than me see my numbers and ask me what thy're doing wrong. So im not sure where you're getting "ill argue this till im blue in the face" :(

~Estaa - Formerly known as The Great Unhindered
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85 Human Paladin
4745
I wouldn't consider any of the guilds that did this 'cheating'. I had friends in both guilds that came to me after the fact complaining that if the guilds had used different personnel in the raid groups it would have happened a LOT sooner, and without the assistance of king slayers. I know both guilds had some good raiders in it, but they also had a LOT of mediocre raiders that THOUGHT they were good raiders also, hence, the ego issues.

I am glad to hear that you've learned to assist others when they need help. Something you may have learned in a guild you were in previously?
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5765
Na, something ive learned from the Navy :)

Like i said Mafioso was pushing 10m LK 2 or 3 weeks after he was released. Silently sneaking up on IMHO for server first till they got wind of it and promptly took action and downed everything in one night -.-

GYS had great tanks and healers and some good dps but where they lacked was situational awareness across the board. Mafioso on the other hand ran some dang near flawless raids with a few minor glitches on trash.

All in all Dentarg Ally has seen its fair share of awesome players dating back to Naxx with Artifact and Ulduar with Impressive and Rebel Alliance.

Btw if anyone from the old Rebel Alliance is reading this, whatever happened to that awesom DK of yours, Sinful? Good guy and would lik to know what hs up to and if hes still playing or not.
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85 Human Paladin
4745
Well I went checked and found that IMHO had LK down on Feb 22nd, some 18 or so days after he became available, Mafi hadn't even downed Sindragosa at that point, and didn't down her till March 9th, and didn't down LK till July 22nd. GYS likewise downed Sindi on March 25th, and took till July 4th to down LK.

Yes, alliance raiding on Dentarg has indeed seen it's better days, but at this point, with as many losses as we've suffered to the horde side of our better players, I don't see it changing any time soon.

With guilds on the alliance side stretching thin the few decent raiders we have, I don't see much hope in having alliance guilds with the ability to push the raiding envelope so to speak. There are some good guilds on Dentarg on the alliance side, unfortunately, there are not enough really good players, dedicated, willing to research their characters and research raid encounters, to go around to those good guilds. I'm hopeful that changes, but I am not certain it will. Perhaps if we found more players willing to do this, and willing to spend less time in trade chat bashing alliance constantly, not to mention wasting time bashing other alliance guilds, and generally just being obnoxious, we would stand a better chance of building better raiding guilds.
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85 Human Paladin
3635
You are too nice, Ðarkknight, if someone is consistantly not listening, or unwilling to learn let them know, boot them from the raid, and let them know they won't be back until they listen.
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85 Human Paladin
4745
That's funny considering all the things I hear about myself in trade chat and how truly horrible I am!

But, while the solution seems quite simple, just boot somebody out of the raid if they're not going to listen, we're stuck with what we have, we don't have replacements, so booting them out of the raid would mean calling the raid for that night, which I have done previously, just to stop the wiping from going even further. But then we have to go through the process of either getting that person/those people up to par in order to raid, or, finding somebody to replace them, in order to be prepared for the next night of raids.
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