World of Warcraft®

01/28/2011 5:11 PMPosted by Bluntknife

Funny how this is becoming a "10 mans have it so much harder! QQ" thread. Suck it up, you guys want to raid 10 mans, deal with it. 25 man guilds have to run bigger rosters to deal with class specific encounters etc, so do you guys.

They were not "10 mans are harder" comments, they were "10 mans have different challenges"

They are the same, only different. They are different, but the same. You can't compare the challenges directly because they are different. It won't stop people from trying, but they really are completely different issues.

Eh if i could choose/had the time i'd go with a 25 man anyday. For one in a 25 man the raid content is alot easier, that is if you have 25 people with brains. Some encounters are downright redonk in 10 man on HM as compared to 25 man.
Plus extra lewt out the hooo daddy is pretty nice too.

Personally i agree with what people are saying that 25 mans are easier to manage and in many ways they are easier.

The hardest part of 25-man guilds is the actual recruitment process and getting them off the ground. Its very difficult to get 25 solid raiders on every raid night.

i very much miss the variety of the 10/25 man raids of BC and WotLK (ICC excluded) as it stands now there really isn't enough reward for getting 25 people together. Having access to certain content for having that many people was awesome. Like stepping up to the big leagues.

I guess thats just how I feel though.

A 25man raid will have an easier time gearing their members than a 10man raid will. The chances of DE gear dropping in 10 are a lot higher, the chances of a piece of gear dropping that a whole 25 people cannot use is extremely low as compared to 10man.
For our first week in raiding we went in quite early and did not have a hunter. Magmaw and Omnotron both dropped a piece of mail agi gear that went to our elemental shaman's offspec. 50% of the gear that dropped went pretty much unused.
In a 25-man, what are the chances that you do not have a hunter or an enhancement shaman? Well... obviously a lot lower than 10man.
In 25mans there are more loot drops and there are more people to distribute it to, and therefore gearing goes a bit faster.
I'm in a guild that has started doing both 10 and 25man raiding. We've cleared 12/12 and were a 10man guild, we're working on heroic Halfus so in the meanwhile do 25man BWD to gear. Because yes, gearing in 25s is easier.
Weeks prior our two 10mans disenchanted about 3/5 pieces of loot. Our 25man we only disenchanted a maximum of 1/10 pieces of loot.
You can keep people in your guild happier, when you are handing them loot.
I also feel like it is harder to maintain a "bench" in a 10man raiding guild. Rotating people into a 25man raid is easier, chances of one person not showing up and tossing in one of your benched players has a higher chance. Easier to cope when one player doesn't show up for raid...

I would have to completely disagree with the 25 mans gearing easier. We disenchant more items than the 10 mans I've seen. We also get a lot of doubles (and i've heard rumor of a guild getting 4 of the same item?) on items which causes the same not enough of that spec issues.

We did 10mans two weeks ago and 25mans last week. 2 weeks ago we disenchanted a higher fraction of gear than in 25mans. This may not always be the case, but there is still a much higher chance of 1/25 members needing a piece of gear than 1/10.

01/30/2011 4:42 AMPosted by Evir

Bünny chill dude math/ratios/probability/logic is hard for some people, most will never get it.

Yeah, what do you think this is, EVE online?

We did 10mans two weeks ago and 25mans last week. 2 weeks ago we disenchanted a higher fraction of gear than in 25mans. This may not always be the case, but there is still a much higher chance of 1/25 members needing a piece of gear than 1/10.

Bünny chill dude math/ratios/probability/logic is hard for some people, most will never get it.

Like you? It's been made obvious through your statements and is most likely why you won't argue mine.

The math is there, but apparently it's just a tad bit over your head.

Edit: Like in your other post where you bring up the age-old debate about 10v25man raiding and difficulty levels. Troll status.

I lead a small guild of close knit friends, and we started out as a ten man guild. I led some 25s in WotLK, but my focus has always been my friends within the game and being able to spend time with them no matter where any of us are in the country. We only really ran 25s for the extra badges and loot drops, and mostly disliked the people we had to bring along to accomplish the feat. We were relieved as a group when they announced 10s and 25s would share the same raid lockout.

As far as which is more difficult, who cares? We aren't trying to be world first or even server first. We raid two nights a week and do as much as we can and have fun. That's it. It's a game, and games shouldn't be whined about.

I think the problem is more one of perceptions. There is some benefit to 25s in that you do get more loot and have a higher chance of distributing all the loot that drops than in 10s. That's indisputable fact.

HOWEVER:

The vast majority of players I run into have the IMPRESSION that 10 mans are easier to do, have easier fights, have less competition for loot, and have less complicated processes like DKP, invites, etc. They also believe the rewards are equal because the same items drop.

When you put these two ideas together, most players in WoW right now feel that being in a 10 man guild is simply easier and better for them in the long run. The overwhelming bias of many players is that 25 man guilds are too much effort for no real benefit.

Now, many of us know this isn't true and that 25s are vastly more rewarding and they are actually easier to manage in the long run due to having more classes available to deal with mechanics. The raid stacking required to do 10m hard modes is absolutely retarded right now and I'd hate to be dealing with that.

So what's the REAL issue? I can't freaking recruit for 25s because everyone thinks 10s are easier and drop the same loot. That simple fact right there DOES make 25s harder because I can't recruit the players I need to do them. This makes me a sad GL. :(

01/30/2011 11:51 AMPosted by Furör

The last three fights you linked have a higher precentage of 25-man guilds clearing the content.

Probably has something to do with not as many wipes because people don't get there on 25m, and the people that do will kill it. I saw the same thing, higher wipe %'s in 10m, but then I compared the number of attempts to wipes and saw an almost staggering difference.

Such as, and this is simply comparing Magmaw:
10m Normal - 29853 kills, 152100 wipes, 16.4 % success.
25m Normal - 16875 kills, 36940 wipes, 31.4 % success.

The ONLY reason they have a higher percentage is because there are VASTLY more people doing 10m and being classified as ONLY 10m, in comparison to 25m.

In response to H 10m's, on fights with adds, they had the same HP/Spawn rate of 25, making them vastly harder. Halfus was also retarded, due to needing 3 tanks for the first 2-3 minutes, leaving less DPS available to kill drakes, making the fight a lot more difficult on 10m.

Some fights on H 10m were more difficult due to the logistics of the fight, mostly those with adds. Those same add fights are stupid on normal too I'd assume (Nef). That or the guilds get to Nef far too easily and take a while to kill him, vs. the 25m guilds that kill him the night they get to him, or their next raid night after. Who's to truly know?

There's still NO reason for one to have more benefit than the other. People will raid what they will. Why does it matter to you? If you want to raid 10m's because you feel it's easier for the same loot, more power to you. Our 25m is as tight knit as some peoples' 10m's. Depends on the guild.

As a side note of interest on the "Which is harder?" contest: In 25m hard modes, losing someone is almost always a wipe right now. Same is to be said for 10m hard modes I would assume. So...what's the point in arguing the difference if both almost always result in a wipe? The fights are tuned wickedly good, and it's a very nice challenge in comparison to ICC (first week of hardmodes 7/12 in 25m lawl).

Raid what you want, stop trying to epeen which is harder. It doesn't matter, because you aren't in direct competition.

01/29/2011 8:41 AMPosted by Sâbretooth

25 man raiding is easier than 10 period. More room for error.

Clearly you haven't been in any 25 man raids, or, you are just ignorant to the fact that although there are more people and apparently less room for error, there are more frequent abilities, more people to mess up on those abilities, and the raid is as equally dependant on sufficient sitational awareness/dps/hps as a 10 or 25.

In my oppinion, playing both 10 and 25, 25 is more challenging. Many more people do to that one thing that wipes your raid.

But I suppose it all depends on the level of players you bring. If you have 10 pros, its going to be easier than 10 pros, 10 average, and 5 baddies.

01/29/2011 6:50 AMPosted by Alveiah

10 mans are too easy for the same loot.

lol at linking normal mode kill statistics. With the exception of Al'akir, just about every 10man heroic fight is quite a bit more difficult than its 25 man encounter, with maybe 2 or 3 being roughly equal.

It's not even just that. To MANY people, managing a 10-man guild was just more ideal and plenty of 25-man raiding guilds split into 10-man guilds. The fact that there are thousands of more 10-man guilds now, than there used to be, leads to the above posted statistics. Even on normal, it has nothing to do with difficulty, but just pure volume. Plus some of those guilds may have killed it on both, depending on their turnout for any given week.

ten mans are just as hard as 25 mans, the ONLY difference is that it is harder to gather 25 skilled players as it is 10. I have done both this expac, so bite me. this argument is stupid.

however, on the devalue of 25 mans, it happened for literally the same reason! also the only reason the 25 player guilds work so well is because those are mostly older, sustained, experience, synergized.

if the numbers say anything it doesn't matter bc of the prev reason as well it is impossible to evaluate for the same reasons. so everyone, shut the heck up and AT LEAST stop QQing! (directed only to those who were)

final word: seeabovepost

Each fight is different. Some are more or less difficult on 10 man.

The one constant in all of this is that managing a 25 man guild is always harder, period. It is more difficult to keep that many people happy. Loot distribution, invites, positioning, spacing, and communication all become more difficult as the number of players increases.

With that said, Nefarian sucks on 10 and is easier on 25 man difficulty. But then again Al'Akir is much worse on 25m. It all depends really.