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My guild is mostly casual and we are trying to make the transition to hardcore. We take 15-20 serious raiders to our 25 man raids and always end up with 5-10 players that get carried and just want loot. Cataclysm raiding seems to have no place for raiders that aren't playing their best and pulling their own weight.
Our GM seems unwilling to boot players because he thinks it will cause too much drama and ruin our guilds reputation. I'm talking horrible players that pull 6-10k dps, ignore mechanics, and don't use consumables or gear properly. My questions are: how do hardcore guilds deal with booting bad players? and will booting bad players ruin the guilds reputation so that it can't recruit new raiders to fill raid spots?
Don't know how this will work out but we're going through basically the same issue. (Too many friends of friends of friends and wrath was pretty faceroll)
I posted some news on our website telling them how to play better and setting the req for raiding in cata and explaining why it is so, and making people INTERESTED in raiding check it out before they actually get invited to raid. That way it's no longer on the guild leaders but on the individual to decide if they want to raid.
85 Undead Warlock
I don't see the need to boot them from the guild itself, but if you already have better raiders, then simply not include them in the raid roster once you have better players to replace them with.
You can encourage/help them to start their own 10s group and let them learn on their own if you're feeling generous.
I'll second the notion that there's no reason to make a big deal/scene out of booting someone, especially if they've been in the guild a while.
Just recruit someone to replace them and stop inviting them to raids. They'll get the message and either try to earn their spot back or (more likely) move on to a new guild on their own.
If you are serious about making the move to hardcore, you will have to get rid of the bad players. It won't happen overnight though, since you will have to go thru the process of recruiting good players to fill their shoes.
To be honest it doesn't sound like your GM would be fit to handle a hardcore guild if he is hesistant to sit/replace bad players. In a hardcore guild the GM must have a "forceful hand" and do what is best for the guilds progression and not worry about hurting peoples feelings. It's all about business at that point.
If a applicant paid 25 dollars to server transfer to your guild and on the first raid died almost every fight and did less DPS then others of the same spec/class with similar gear, would your GM kick him right away? If the answer is no, then no way he could run a successful hardcore top US guild.
Edited by Bigsandwich on 1/31/2011 4:33 AM PST
71 Troll Hunter
In one of my past guilds we had a mix of hard-core and casual raiders. We had lots of "friends" in there that were just not cut out to be raiders. We used the guild ranks to delineate between people and what people could expect. They were pretty simple.
GM - Also raid lead and Tank Officer (evaluate tanks). Also the only one that could promote or demote. Would personally speak to members demoted before it happened.
Healer Officer - In charge of evaluating all healers and providing recommendation on promote or demote. For recruits would share his evaluation on their performance after each raid with the recruit.
Range DPS officer - same as above but for range dps
Melee DPS officer - Same as above but for melee.
Admin Officer - other functions like maintain GB and such
Raider - These were tried and true raid members. They received priority on getting into raids. All officers were also raiders. We also only allowed 30 players to be at this rank (or above) to cut down on players of this rank being bench warmers.
Recruit - These were new people to the guild and we were judging their performance. Their performance would either elevate them to raider or drop them into friends.
Friends - These were people that just weren't the hard core raiders. Their DPS was not what it should be, their situational awareness was not what it should be, etc. It was very rare that these players were invited to progression raids. That's not to say we never let them play with us. On off nights we would run lower tier raids and these were welcome to come to those. This also allowed people to redeem themselves and be moved back up into recruit.
These ranks worked very well to help keep "friends" in the guild, but also to have the progression that we wanted.
To make it work it took clear communication (something I think that 90% of guilds lack) to the players. When we told a recruit that he wasn't cutting it and would be moved to friends, some of them got upset and left, but these were mostly "unknowns". I think that we had 1 instance where we lost a good raider because we demoted his friend to Friends.
We would explain how things worked with a new person and when we would demote them we would use web-parses and other proof that he was not performing to our standards. When we did this we would also encourage them to speak with and get help from other raiders of his class and if we saw improvement on our off-raids. We would reconsider.
Edited by Perigoso on 1/31/2011 9:25 AM PST
You have two issues to tackle here, I think: "What type of guild are we/do we want to be?" and "Is poor performance reasonable cause to be kicked from the guild as a whole, or just sat out of raids?"
The first one is something the officers/GL have to tackle together - usually with the GL making the final call. If you are hardcore progression, or even just merely progression, you have good cause to sit players who don't meet your standards for raiding. If you choose to do this, make sure you talk to the guild as a whole and to each affected player individually about any changes the new rules might entail, and make sure you enforce them equally among all players. If you do choose to enforce new rules like "Must meet 9k DPS minimum for a raid spot", you should work with the players who don't to see if you can make them better. Spin it positively - "We'd really like to have you raid, but our group-wide DPS is too low and we really would like you to gain 2k DPS before rejoining us. Could I hook you up with X-good-player or X-class-leader to see if there are things you could work on with them?" If you're a casual guild, it's a lot harder to enforce progression-based rules.
The second question is more a guild environment one. Do you have social members? Do you like having social members? Would former raiders be okay being "just" social members? You might find that if you enforce progression rules or speak with people about their performance, they may leave your guild on their own.
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