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I'm going to admit I didn't read any of this thread except the first post and Nethaera's post.
I raid tanked as a warrior in BC.
I raid tanked as both a warrior and a paladin in WotLK.
Due to real life constraints I had to leave my old guild behind. Raiding is a thing of the past. The LFD tool, in my honest opinion, is a great thing, and back in WotLK it gave me a way to tank again aside from the rigors of raid schedules. However, I now find the task daunting, all these new dungeons, and I am the one the group depends on to lead. I have already run into my fair share of impatient players who want to pull before I can mark CC, or even pull before I can read a strategy on a boss. The problem is, as I saw mentioned before, is player mindset. It's not Blizzard's fault players become impatient. Blizzard has not turned me away from tanking. The players have. It's not the mechanics that scare me, it's the typed tongue-lashings from other players that do.....
The only solution I can think of is this: Create solo dungeons. None of the loot can be sold or disenchanted. The items would not be quite equivalent to current dungeon loot, but close. Although I know this will likely never happen. This is an MMO for Uther's sake.
They can't change people driving too slow without forcing them to drive fast.
I'd love them to force DPS to play better. Tighten enrage timers. Have an interruptable debuff that makes you do 90% less DPS. Have the same debuff apply if you stand in bad stuff.
Then the DPS can shoulder some of the responsibility.
But what really happens in this case? NERF CORBORUS I CAN'T RUN OUT OF DUST CLOUDS
Okay, make more lanes so that the DRIVERS can get to work faster.Problem solved.
Think of it this way...
There are an infinite number of roads and vehicles... but each road needs someone to volunteer to plow the roads. Yet only a handful volunteer to drive the snowplow.
Expect a lot of waiting for the few lanes that get a snowplow.
Can't really fix this without figuring out why nobody wants to drive the snowplow...
1) It's slow
2) It holds a lot of responsiblity
3) It's taxing
4) People blame the plow for how slow things go
Edited by Divinara on 2/3/2011 10:20 AM PST
Here's some suggestions
1) Raise the heroic gear requirement from 329 to 335
2) Adjust the LFD tool to penalize for PvP gear, no enchants, no gems, etc. And ignore unequippable or 'wrong' gear.
3) Give incentives to run more than one regular a day (ie. more JP, which they're doing next patch)
4) Add boss abilites to the dungeon map so players can get an understanding of what the boss is capable of without resorting to 3rd party sites (wowhead, etc.)
5) Add basic boss mods into the game (much like they did with Spell Effects).
6) Eliminate or reduce 'one-shot mechanics'
7) Buff healing (there i said it) since there appears to be a shortage of healers.
8) Introduce attunements to dungeons so that players don't jump into a heroic without ever doing the instance on regular. (may have to adjust how the LFD tool handles the lower difficulty instances).
My suggestion would be giving a role for dps in special tasks such as CC, replenishment and interrupt. This may be greatful to have a balanced group and assign task to each player that may be more than just dps.
While I fully sympathize, what exactly do you think Blizzard CAN do to fix this? Short of changing dungeons so they don't need a tank (not gonna happen), there's only a certain amount they can do.
Yes, they could make the heroics easier, which might cause more tanks to queue. However, that will happen as the player base gets better geared anyway (patch 4.1 will GREATLY affect the random queue, imo), so they don't actually need to do anything right now for that to happen eventually.
Yes, they could add additional rewards (such as bonus gold for completing an instance as a tank or additional valor points for the second random heroic per day), but the first would cause an uproar in the non-tanking classes, and both options might not actually increase the number of tanks available. Tanks often prefer to go with their guild, because pugs are so frequently painful.
As for letting other classes tank (such as a mage tank)... while I think it could be fun and extremely interesting to give all classes a tanking spec, I also think it might not be as effective as you would think. Often people play dps classes because they want to dps, not tank, and giving them the option to tank wouldn't actually change things. On top of that, you're talking about a HUGE programming change, the size of which could rival what they did to the talent trees for Cataclysm.
I'm not saying the problem is unsolvable... however, any solution has potential flaws that would need to be evaluated and worked around if implemented. And at the end of the day, there's only a certain amount Blizzard can do at one time.
It is a problem. I didn't claim otherwise. Nor did I claim nothing can be done.
What I have said is that the solution rests with the players, not with Blizzard. Blizzard cannot, and should not, be held responsible for the fact that so many people in the community just want to see big numbers while being able to go afk nearly at will (without causing a wipe). Nor can, or should, they be held responsible for the fact that so many tanks and healers refuse to pug because pugs are generally so terrible.
The game is designed to require collaborative play for some content. If the players refuse to collaborate, that's not Blizzard's fault.
Seriously, why is that mechanic so difficult to grasp? Corla too. Get to 80 stacks get out of the beam, stacks fall off, get back in. Rinse and repeat.
I have the perfect solution to the long LFG queues. Have Blizzard implement a way to identify the dps that refuses to CC, stands in stupid or can't reach the needed dps numbers to successfully kill the mobs.
Once the "problem" dps is identified, have them banned from the LFG tool for about a week, and give them the explanation that they need to fix whatever earned them the ban in the first place.
This will certainly cut queue times, and give the "bad" players a time out, if you will, so that they learn their class a little better.
85 Worgen Warrior
This is very inaccurate though I agree with your point.
DPS queues will not be cut in half maybe just by 1/3 through 1/5 or maybe less. This because theoretically its only adding a 4th with ever 3 players which would be 1/3 solved.
The thing is more dps will be inclined to dps with slightly shorter queues and some ither minor factors. However these more people DPSing will do so because they like it, allowing them to actually play something they enjoy, hey that's always a good thing instead of forcing people to play a spec or class.
The benefit is there without a doubt and a huge benefit either way even if it doesn't entirely fix 5 mans. Heck LFD is so quick 5 mans almost aren't needed any more they can be any size they want.
I am a fan of the ratio of dps to tanks and healers changing even if it goes to 1 tank and healer for a group up to 10 people a majority of the playerbase, a huge majority would benefit.
Edited by Crankey on 2/3/2011 10:24 AM PST
Reading comprehension hard for you?
How does my idea make it a M-Snow? They wouldn't be cpu controlled Tankbots, they would be controlled by a dps that Q'd as a Vehicle: Tank. I would still want this vehicle to be hard to operate and not make the instance face roll.
BTW i don't care about the Q times. I'm a healer and i have my own pocket tanks so i could care less. It's just an idea.
It's not like the over-abundance of DPS is some recent development. Queue times in Wrath were 15-20 minutes.Because there is NOTHING wrong with 15-20 minute waits that's why. I'm sure you'll come back with, the goal should be no wait, but that is totally unrealistic.
15-20 minutes was a godsend compared to they way it was before LFD came about. Even 45 minute queue is better than the hastle previously. You had tp sit in a city and spam trade forever, to get a group. Now you can just queue up, anywhere, and do anything whiel you wait. The peope who complain are the ones who sit in a city and do nothing, they probably haven't seen the outside of SW (after leveling), since they dinged.
They could do that sure...and then i along with most everyone I know would either quit (who the hell wants to run with a bot?) , or never ever bother to get a tank set going when you can just have the NPC do it. They would be setting the expectation that this game never ever needs a tank or a healer and thats foolish.
Also to be fair, i haven't yet seen any queue at 45 minutes. Most i've seen was last night at 35 mins which gives me time to grind some arch/rep/whatever and get ready for my nightly heroic. The sad thing is that wrath gave people the expectation that they could chain run heroics using LFD and now people cannot seem to adapt or comprehend the reasons why the queues have gotten longer.
The most viable solution i've seen is to make heroics shorter somehow to get tanks/healers back into the system but I don't like that idea much either without some consideration on keeping the difficulty of these places very high (I love the current challenge as opposed to the facerollingWrath heroics).
OP - the blues have already said they've heard your concerns but yet you still rant with zero other solutions of your own to offer up to the conversation. Be patient and let them work it out or use one of any other number of viable alternatives like guild runs and spamming /trade.
Edited by Sendarion on 2/3/2011 10:25 AM PST
I don't think that giving tanks or healers special perks/bonuses for running dungeons is a very good solution - it will just encourage undergeared and bad players to queue as tanks and healers. Obviously there is nothing stopping that from happening now, but I'd much rather have a longer wait for a better chance at a decent tank/healer than have runs fail or fall apart because of a bad one. I don't think the vehicle idea really works either for a variety of reasons that I don't need to list here.
While long dps queues are certainly not ideal, I think the problem is that you are assuming that they are a huge issue for the entire playerbase. I don't believe that's the case, many of us are doing just fine and have no problems getting around that. Do your dailies while you wait. Go with a guild or friend healer or tank. Pay a tank for a fast queue. Do what people did in WoW for the first 5 years - form a group of your own from your realm. You are by no means limited to the LFD tool, its merely an option that can make things more convenient. Its not a game-breaking issue and if it is such for you then perhaps you should consider the many alternatives and get over it.
If you are in manufacturing then you know that no matter how good of a product you make, someone will find a way to misuse it, to not understand it, to not make it work, or to otherwise be unhappy with its design. The more customers you have, the less likely you will be able to satisfy each and every single one of them no matter how much you want or try to. The other day I was reading an article that laughed at a company who made whistles to help train dogs and they had a disclaimer on their product that included "will not work with deaf dogs". Well duh. But it was necessary because somewhere out there someone was going to try it on their deaf dog and wonder why it didn't work.
Good customer service will always try and assist their customers with figuring out the problem, correcting the issue, helping them with instructions, etc etc. When a large number of customers have issues and problems then clearly something needs to be adjusted. It would definitely be great if Blizzard could find a way to reduce the queue times without completely favoring tanks/healers in rewards b/c that would lead to a whole different set of problems.
The fact of the matter is that sometimes, despite everything you do, it IS the customer's fault that they couldn't make it work. So maybe you just need to stop wondering why at your deaf dog isn't coming when you call him and use one of the many other ways that Blizzard has given you to get into dungeon group.
Here is a simple solution to your 'simple problem.'
Regardless of what field of work you chose for a career, you need to understand that without the proper structure, the entire operation will be inoperable.
With that being said, let's take a look at your manufacturing plant. We have the boss, the crew, and the conveyor belts. The boss tells the crew what to do, and how to handle their work load through the day. The crew is told to design said item, and place it on a conveyor belt upon completion to arrive at said location for either packaging or delivery. If the boss's message is clear, the crew does it's work, and the conveyor belt work without a problem, then everyone goes home at the end of the day with a smile on their face.
Now let's take another example. You have the same crew, but your boss calls out sick. The crew is dumbfounded, because they do not have orders, so they stand around waiting for someone to be called in so they know what to do. Now, we understand, there are not many bosses at all, especially in his line of work - so finding a replacement might be time consuming or difficult.
The exact same principle is applied to the game. The dungeon is a principle of a boss (tank), a crew (dps), and a conveyor belt (healer). If you don't have the boss Queuing for his JOB, then the other 4 people stand around and wait for a replacement. There is nothing broken about this system - you simply have a lack of overall player base that wants to roll or play a tank full time.
I, on the other side of things, have absolutely no gripes with any part of how this system works because I understand the logic of things. If I choose to Queue as a DPS player (which I never do, btw), I go in understanding that I will be waiting for a substantial period of time because the overall Tank:DPS ratio is VERY slim. No matter what server, battlegroup, or realm crossing we implement. I love tanking, I love tankings diversity, and I constantly challenge myself to rise above the expectations of whatever group I join (guild, OR LFD).
You can't simply wave a wand as a DPS class and expect Blizzard to "fix a problem with long wait times" when it isn't their problem to begin with.
Here's a helpful suggestion: if you really want to deck out your dps set, you will do it substantially faster Queuing as a tank. As a tank, on my DK and Warrior, I completed both full sets pf Heroic DPS gears before I completed my Tank setups.
TL;DR - Queue as Tank, learn to take control and command your dungeon group, and gear your DPS set just as fast as your Tank set.
I work in manufacturing. We take great pains to design our product to be so easy that an idiot can figure it out. We made descriptive labels, we make user instruction booklets, etc that explain exactly how to use it.
Edited by Geostigmå on 2/3/2011 10:38 AM PST
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