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I personally enjoy DPS'n over tanking because of the stress/expectation that comes with tanking. This doesn't meant I don't like tanking...I really do. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. I can not be the healer for a group...it's just not a role that is suited for me.
Tank - LFD is working perfectly well. My que time is nonexistent.
1.) Ques as tank for fast que
2.) Ques as tank because they enjoy the role
Healer - LFD is working good enough for me. Que time is 5-10 minutes.
1.) Ques as healer for a faster que
2.) Ques as healer because they enjoy the role
DPS - LFD is working for me. Que time is 40 minutes to get in.
1.) Ques as dps because they enjoy the role.
In all examples lfd is working. Now lets look at what that means.
LFD - A system that selects players to form a party from all servers in the battlegroup, so there need not be a full group of players on one specific realm.
Now a party consists of 3 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank. If any particular role has a plethora of players queing then you will run into wait times. LFD works off of the first come first served bases.
What possible solutions are there to quicken anyone's que time, other then having more players playing certain roles.
Well you could redo battlegroups....not sure how viable this is...and whether or not it would actually solve anything. In the end most likely the end result would be the same. Even if at the beginning it did make things "seem" better.
Bribe people to play certain roles. Nothing makes people happier to do something then money...or in this case rewards. Although this could/would cause more drama. If person x is getting something and person z isn't.....z could very well get upset...."i'm paying to play, blah blah...wheres my incentive, blah blah)
If tanks were rewarded...it couldn't be with points (complaints tanks get gear to easy). Gold?? This could lead to gold farming instances....sigh.. again this will not really make things better as the issues this would cause would have to be addressed.
Have it so the first time you Que for an instance you are moved up to the front of the Que...... And only once.
Now problems with this are. If you have already done an instance, bam you are constantly being moved back.
If you get booted/dc from an instance, you reque and are now last...and may continue to be moved back for awhile.
In the end the LFD serves it purpose perfectly. Maybe I believe this to be true because I came from a game without such a nifty tool. And I don't mind the first come first served set up. I really like this tool. And I am grateful to have its use. My dps alts appreciate it too.
Thank you blizzard
The DPS queue time isn't a problem that Blizzard can 'fix'. They could alleviate it a bit but its the population and the players that influence this the most.
Changing 5 mans into 6 mans would at most drop the queue times by 33%(i.e. you need 33% more DPS per group). This would result in 30 minute queues. Is that enough? Because then people will cry 30 minute queues are too long, make them 7 mans.
Its not purely the population of Tanks versus DPS. Good tanks can easily get good DPS and/or healers to go with them. This was the same in Wrath before the dungeon queue. Good Tanks had a list of good healers/DPS that they could form up groups really fast. The undergeared or not so skilled players were left helpless and would have issues getting into groups, if at all. Or the casual players that only played a couple hours that didn't have a guild or friends to pull from would have issues finding groups. IMHO, LFD was made to solve these problems and not to solve your alts issue of finding groups. I'm sure some people can remember the time when their DPS or tank or healer had to take just as much time to form a group manually and compared to that LFD is much better. You can go do things while in group and when it pops port right in.
So the first factor is that a lot of tanks don't solo queue. This is made worse by needing guild groups to get reputation and exp for your guild. Another thing effecting this is the loot roll system. Tanks get annoyed when DPS roll on Tank gear for their OS. Therefore, they bring guildies/friends with them so this doesn't happen. The 'Tank Role' member should be the only able to roll need on tank drops, and greed should override disenchant.
The biggest factor is probably the difficulty of the heroic dungeons. They can't be facerolled by bad tanks. In Wrath, bad tanks could tank heroics and therefore you had more tanks in the queue. But, this goes further than just the tank population. The ease of a dungeon lies in the hands of the DPS. Now a super geared super skilled tank could probably pull everything with no CC and deal with DPS on the wrong target. But, those tanks usually only do one queue for their daily valor. Even now where I outgear the dungeons, its painful with pugs when they are just facerolling. As a Paladin tank, I have no off GCD interrupt for now. I swear 90% of the DKs, Warriors, and Rogues just sit there and let Shock Blast, LavaBurst, or Shadow Strike just go off and think they didn't do anything wrong.
So the second factor is actually the DPS themselves. Wrath caused the population of what are referred to as 'Wrath Babies' to proliferate. These are mainly DPS that haven't learn that facerolling the meters is not how to play a DPS. The relative ease of Wrath dungeons made it so CC, interupts, and focus fire did not matter. So Wrath is more the cause of the issue than Cataclysm.
There is NO incentive that would entice me to queue solo into LFD as long as the population of faceroll DPS is so high. Even, 100 Valor Points, or 1000 Gold wouldn't make me want to suffer that kind of pain.
If they made the dungeons faceroll again, would you really consider that 'fun'?
Also, on the note of the length of the instances. They really aren't that long if you have a group of 5 good players. 20 to 30 minutes tops in a good guild group, with the exception of maybe HoO, which should be broken into two instances.
The wider solution to 40 minute queues is:
A) developing a community that encourages tanks and healers to pug, rather than punishing them any time they queue without at least 2-3 DPS they know, and
B) developing a community in which more people are willing and able to pay a reasonable amount of attention, rather than the absolute minimum required (casting CC once per 30 sec, moving out of the obvious fire, and hitting a couple buttons to see big numbers).
Edit: "Queues," of course. Serves me right for taking my cue from the post I quoted..
Edited by Galashin on 2/3/2011 10:27 AM PST
Here's some suggestions
Sure, these are good.
3) Give incentives to run more than one regular a day (ie. more JP, which they're doing next patch)
Won't help. Whatever they add will have a cap, once I'm at that cap, I don't care anymore. Happened with JP. Happened with Perky Pug. Happened with Blue Drake from Oculus.
6) Eliminate or reduce 'one-shot mechanics'
Absolutely not. One shot mechanics eliminate tunnel visioning DPS. If you die to one shot mechanics, it's no one's fault but your own.
Good healers aren't complaining. They are glad that their role is challenging again.
Bad healers want things to be Wrath-easy.
Healing is absolutely fine.
Here is the perfect solution - remove the Dungeon Finder.
This is the best solution. It also will help restore a fractured community.
Edited by Wojtek on 2/3/2011 10:27 AM PST
The term DPS is such a broad catagory anyway. It can be cut down into several subcatagories, such as CC or Melee DPS, etc. There are only one type of way to tank or heal (generally speaking) but different gameplay related ways to deal damage.
This is SO true. I have this warrior, a DK, and a Pally. I could tank and/or heal all day long but I don't. I don't because A. I really enjoy dps especially since I have to think and move and interrupt and what not in Cata, and B. I have no desire to take the kind of abuse that tanks and healers put up with these days. I don't spend my sub fee to get talked to like a punk by a bunch of people I don't even know.
As you said I have huge respect for dps who cares about knowing the fights and doing everything they can to make it easier on the heals and tank. I feel that way because I have even greater respect for those who tank and heal and put up with the crap that goes for "teamwork" in dungeons these days. Been at this for 5 years+ and I've never seen it this bad. Blizzard WON by making it my job as dps to support my healer/tank, and they FAILED by making tanking and healing a running nightmare.
Oh no Bennett, my comprehension is just fine. I got the idea you were going for.
I just think making this game at all easier for dps to get into dungeons via a "Class Suit" or vehicle is...dumb.
Go play Gundam or RoboTech if you want that.
As a tank, I don't need extra incentives or more rewards to do my job - I need less mentally-lacking people to accompany me in LFD.
Like a good soldier, I knew it would be tougher and more costly to play a walking Buick with a sword. I'm a Type "A" personality and I thrive on the nature of the beast.
Vandalar - its time to stop now - Tarzan listen to jungle and stop beating head on drum.
You. Are. Wrong. Now.
How many more rational players need to confirm this for you?
85 Blood Elf Priest
Not if the reward is given only for the "successful completion" of the dungeon.
End boss dead, tank gets a little extra something in the mail.
Edited by Heysugar on 2/3/2011 10:33 AM PST
Really can't stress this enough. If I don't happen to find 3-4 guildies interested in a run, I just don't run. The problem isn't Blizzard--it's that runs in which I have 2+ pugs are generally so pathetic, I'd sooner just not receive the rewards at all. Watching "DPS" do less damage than tanks, /autofollow/afk, or demonstrate a lack of basic awareness (standing in fire, dying, then yelling at me for it) isn't worth the trouble.
There are a few things I think you've not thought about; 1 dps per group is a lot. Assume there is 1000 groups running per battlegroup at any given time. That means 1000 more dps are getting into LFD (that number is just random, I'm sure its more, but only Blizzard would know the true numbers). Adding a single DPS could cut the queue times in half if not more in theoryLOL. Adding 1 person to a group of 5, would cut the queue times in half? in theory? What theory would that be? I must have missed that day of my math class.
There is one equally unbalancing bad idea that they can do pretty easily, the same solution they gave us for The Oculus give people who tank bigger rewards. I say gave them 140VP or something like that. That way people have a reason other than faster queue times to tick that check that says Tank.
Dozens of people in the Cataclysm beta forums warned that EXACTLY this was going to happen.
Step hurp: Make healing unfun.
Step durp: Make dungeons require CC.
Step hurpdurp: Wonder why tanks and healers don't want to PuG queue.
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