word on crusader strike not generating hopo?

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85 Dwarf Paladin
9830
This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


If this is the case, why not at least reset the cooldown / refund the mana cost on CS/HotR when it misses? This only compounds the annoyance tanks have to deal with from ideally having zero hit/exp.
Edited by Psiven on 2/8/2011 6:41 PM PST
85 Human Paladin
9125
This wouldn't be a problem for Ret if it weren't for the changes to Divine Purpose / Hand of Light.

I think the problem is that there isn't nearly enough Holy Power being generated even if you never miss or are dodged / parried.

[EDIT]: oh, and by the way as far as the class comparisons about rage and runes and energy or what have you, the phenomena you've been citing happens for us already: we do not consume HP on missed / dodged / parried TV.

HP is a combo-point system, so you'd all better start lobbying for missed Death Strikes to heal the DK, or for Rogues and Druids to start getting combo points from misses.


Not quite accurate. Closer than others in this thread, but not quite.

Rogue Sinister Strike, 39 energy: On hit, does damage and generates a combo point. On miss, refunds 80% of the energy cost.
Eviscerate: 35 energy. On hit, does damage. On miss, does not consume combo points, refunds energy.

In both cases, a hit generates full effect, a miss/dodge/parry does not carry the power or generate points, but also does not penalize the rogue the resources involved beyond the lost GCD.

Death Knight, Death Strike: On hit, does damage and heals. On miss, the runes are refreshed when the GCD ends.

Once again, on a hit, we see full effect. On a miss, the character can immediately try again without penalty.

Paladin: Crusader Strike. On hit, does damage and generates 1 HP, goes on cooldown. On miss, does no damage, generates no HP, goes on cooldown.
Templar's Verdict: on hit, does damage and consumes HP. On miss, HP is not consumed.


So with Templar's Verdict, on a miss we are held to the same penalties as other classes; we lose the GCD, but can try again. With Crusader Strike, however, whether we hit or miss, we lose the usage of the ability, and the resource involved (which in this case, is time).


Now, the counter-argument to all of that is that other classes that have abilities with cooldowns still see those abilities go on cooldown when said ability fails to connect. This is true. But since we're talking about a combo-point system (essentially), tell me: which rogue or cat ability that serves as a combo point generator has an inherent cooldown, and is used rotationally? None. Sinister Strike, Revealing Strike, Backstab, Hemorrhage, Mutilate, Mangle, Rake, and Shred are the combo moves for rogues and cats that get used regularly (hell, even include ambush to include the possibility of shadow dancing). None of those abilities have a cooldown.

Logically, then, the solution is that when CS fails to connect (whether due to miss, dodge, or parry), we don't get HP, but the ability doesn't go on CD. We can try again immediately. That would bring the ability into line with the functionality of every other class that uses this system. Yes, a warrior can miss with shield slam and that ability is still on cooldown, but missing with shield slam doesn't preclude the use of revenge or devastate.



Do I think this really needs to be fixed? Probably not. It only appears to be such a big issue because we have so few buttons to push in the first place. I'm hitting fewer buttons now than I was in 4.0.3, and doing more damage. I feel like the skill level required to play ret has gone way down, because there's just less to react to. With fewer procs and abilities to hit, the priority order is not quite as important, as everyone will sit around waiting on cooldowns before being able to do anything. By contrast, there is never a moment where my hunter or my mage is sitting around waiting. In fact, if there is, I know that I"m doing something horribly wrong, and need to fix it 5 seconds ago.

... in short, not getting HP on a miss is fine. The system not being the same as that used by other classes that use combo point systems is also fine, since classes don't need to be identical. But the sheer lack of holy power in the spec as a whole is hurting a lot (whether or not our damage output is fine, we're just not hitting very many buttons at all, and it *feels* like we're not doing much in battle), and thus anything that further deprives us of holy power is going to seem exponentially worse as a result.

Edit: Of course, I didn't say anything just now that hasn't been said by paladins on the PTR for a long time, so I don't really expect anything to change for some time yet, if at all.

Edit2: For those who didn't look, I'm hit capped and at 16 expertise, 26 with seal of truth up. I don't miss or get dodged. I do get parried when soloing, but ultimately this change does little to me personally. My post is purely based on principle, not a desire to see greater numbers for my character (considering my main spec is holy anyways). (Edit3: I have not reforged my gear to be in line with new stat weights yet, so my caps might shift after writing this post; if I don't appear to be hit/expertise capped, I will be before doing a dungeon).
Edited by Dajakisubo on 2/8/2011 6:56 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7275
I was on beta and remembered when the post was made about it always generating the Holy Power...so this "it's been a bug" argument seems invalid. Backtracking on things like this just gives you a bad reputation. So far, for myself, this hasn't been too game breaking...I don't like it, but whatever, most of us have dealt with worse.

90 Human Paladin
6835
I'd be fine with it if art of war procc'd after being dodge blocked or parried. But as it currently is we get a cooldown and don't get anything. Sure arms MS goes on cd but then they get an overpower, art of war would make it almost equal....
85 Blood Elf Paladin
VoS
12105
So prot paladins are the only tanks that will require hit/exp to generate their main resource. HoPo is turning into a bigger pile of garbage each patch.
82 Human Paladin
5695
GG Blizz, why didn't you think about the other paladin specs? You know, Ret, which is only in a better state than rogues in 4.0.6 (And is below average... Seriously, Frost mages are better than us in PvE and PvP, what the hell?), and you gut our HP regen?

I really hope that you do something atleast with Ret, and prot, reset the CS cd, like the other classes, or have a worse %!*!storm than the Feral nerf... (Seriously, the new MMOs are gonna to come out soon, and you are pissing off the playerbase? Pity, I loved Cata, but I hate what you've done to my class).
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4485
02/08/2011 4:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
This was a bug.


No, it was not a bug. This was working as designed, as per this thread by GC back in Beta: http://www.wowblues.com/us/discusion-on-holy-power-holy-shield-26262867468.html

To quote GC in that blue tracker post:

One per cast. Otherwise we think paladins might want to always be hitting multiple targets, like "Let me tank the boss and one of the adds or my Holy Power generation will be low."


So why the change? If the miss simply caused a reset of the GCD it wouldn't be so bad, but as it stands both prot and ret suffer. Ret in particular as it's already a very RNG based spec.
85 Dwarf Paladin
4985
We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks.


Not sure what you consider to be a "reward" since they still lose the damage, but off the top of my head:

Rogues get their energy refunded when attacks are dodged/parried.
Warriors get rage off dodged/parried attacks
DKs get runes refunded off dodged/parried attacks.
Rogues don't lose combo points when finishes are dodged/parried (i think).

I'm mainly thinking about dodged/parried attacks, missed attacks don't give anything and imo should not.


Obviously he forgot to write the word "paladin" after the word "reward".
Edited by Jefurs on 2/8/2011 7:15 PM PST
85 Dwarf Paladin
4985
This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.

That sounds fair to me. Nice.


Of course it would Zolaf...
85 Tauren Druid
2755
02/08/2011 4:22 PMPosted by Irontager
Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


Prot Warriors also don't have a significant part of their self-healing/mitigation effected by not being Hit/Expertise capped, why are Paladins the double standard to this?

It


Um if a warrior misses victory rush they dont get compensation. Stop crying you bad.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11345
I think all that can be said has been said. You would have to be blind or biased not to see that Paladins suffer the largest penalty by far for failing to land an attack, and furthermore, there are several bosses that force melee DPS to attack from the front and hence have a high parry chance for all or part of a boss fight.

I know we're supposed to have 'rotational gaps' but the gaps are too big now. Even if damage ends up being fine, gameplay is not.

Um if a warrior misses victory rush they dont get compensation. Stop crying you bad.


Does Victory Rush go on cooldown if it misses?
Edited by Jellex on 2/8/2011 7:28 PM PST
85 Human Warrior
3040
02/08/2011 7:24 PMPosted by Utoss


Prot Warriors also don't have a significant part of their self-healing/mitigation effected by not being Hit/Expertise capped, why are Paladins the double standard to this?

It


Um if a warrior misses victory rush they dont get compensation. Stop crying you bad.


Actually, the impending victory heal fires off regardless of the attack table result.
85 Dwarf Paladin
4985
02/08/2011 7:42 PMPosted by Grinling
Does Victory Rush go on cooldown if it misses?


VR doesn't have a cooldown. If VR misses, you still get the heal, just not the pathetic damage it deals. The heal is based off VR being used, not VR actually landing.


So it does "reward" you for a miss.
86 Dwarf Paladin
12935
This is a terrible and frustrating change. If you wanted to nerf paladins then do it some legitimate way instead of passing this off as a 'bugfix' when it specifically doesn't work that way for other classes and specifically was mentioned in beta that it should work the way it did in 4.0.3.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11345
02/08/2011 7:42 PMPosted by Grinling
Does Victory Rush go on cooldown if it misses?


VR doesn't have a cooldown. If VR misses, you still get the heal, just not the pathetic damage it deals. The heal is based off VR being used, not VR actually landing.


Thank you. And yes, that was kind of the point I'm trying to make here; Paladins are being unusually heavily penalized for an attack failing to land, in comparison with other class mechanics.
85 Human Paladin
8785
Not sure if it was mentioned yet or not but your example rings a little hallow I'm afraid Zar. While I get what you were saying about how other tanks miss too, if a warrior misses a heroic strike it doesn't add 3 secs onto shield slam's CD.
85 Dwarf Paladin
4985


So it does "reward" you for a miss.


In the rare chance that a Prot Warrior gets the killing blow? Yes, I suppose it does.


Just spelling it out, as it reinforces our point about how "don't generally reward characters for missing" isn't really true at all.
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