word on crusader strike not generating hopo?

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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11345
In the rare chance that a Prot Warrior gets the killing blow? Yes, I suppose it does.


Contextually, aren't we talking about the Impending Victory talent or whatever that protection talent is?
100 Human Paladin
11980
OK but if miss not producing holy power is intended. Why does CS go on cooldown unlike every other combo point based classes? You refund them energy and they only lose one GCD. Paladin lose 3-4.5 seconds on top of the holy power they lost. This is a bit excesive.
85 Human Paladin
8860
02/08/2011 4:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


When Shield Slam is the only way to gain rage for prot warriors, then I would view this as a valid example.
100 Draenei Paladin
11975
02/08/2011 4:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks.


True, we shouldn't be rewarded for failing to land an attack. But look at things like feral kitties, who get energy refunded if their attacks miss, so they're not penalized too harshly. They can attack again with the same attack.

DK's don't lose runes, so they can repeat the attack.


If we miss a CS, we don't do the damage from that attack, and lose out on a HP, leading to less threat/healing. I know personally, while tanking Halfus and double dragons tonight, I didn't have threat issues, and 3 HP WoG was coming up when I needed it. But I definitely noticed, in that before, if I had 2 HP, I could hit CS and then be sure to have a SoTR or WoG next, and I found myself not having 3 HP when I expected it. Time will tell if we're actually balance with the reduced HP generation I guess.
Edited by Helagoth on 2/8/2011 8:29 PM PST
90 Human Death Knight
6270
Rogues are not awarded combo points when their attacks miss, diseases are not applied when dks miss their strikes; damage is not inflicted when spells, so tell me why should paladins be the exception?

Use your head.
86 Blood Elf Paladin
9210
Rogues are not awarded combo points when their attacks miss, diseases are not applied when dks miss their strikes; damage is not inflicted when spells, so tell me why should paladins be the exception?

Use your head.


Let's make it so if a DK misses an ability, they cant use their runes for 3 secs.
100 Human Paladin
11980
Rogues are not awarded combo points when their attacks miss, diseases are not applied when dks miss their strikes; damage is not inflicted when spells, so tell me why should paladins be the exception?

Use your head.


I dont think you understand. You also dont lose your rune / energy when you miss. Meaning you can recast them. Paladin cannot crusader strike has a cooldown.
90 Human Death Knight
6270
02/08/2011 8:47 PMPosted by Toij
Let's make it so if a DK misses an ability, they cant use their runes for 3 secs.

Because that's clearly the same thing.

02/08/2011 8:47 PMPosted by Ragingclue
I dont think you understand. You also dont lose your rune / energy when you miss. Meaning you can recast them. Paladin cannot crusader strike has a cooldown.

Really? Resources are refunded when you miss a target? Or is that just limited to energy and rune based classes, because I'm sure you don't get mana or rage back - never really noticed a refund when missing a rune or energy based attack.
85 Draenei Death Knight
4100
02/08/2011 8:49 PMPosted by Bultek
Because that's clearly the same thing.



No, it really is.

The current CS situation would literally be equal to missed strikes not refunding runes. The CD of CS in this case is= to that of Runes.

02/08/2011 8:49 PMPosted by Bultek
because I'm sure you don't get mana or rage back - never really noticed a refund when missing a rune or energy based attack.


Warriors get an 80% refund on rage for Parries/Dodges.

But really, keep trying to justify this stupid oversight.
Edited by Irontager on 2/8/2011 8:53 PM PST
100 Human Paladin
11980
Let's make it so if a DK misses an ability, they cant use their runes for 3 secs.

Because that's clearly the same thing.

I dont think you understand. You also dont lose your rune / energy when you miss. Meaning you can recast them. Paladin cannot crusader strike has a cooldown.

Really? Resources are refunded when you miss a target? Or is that just limited to energy and rune based classes, because I'm sure you don't get mana or rage back - never really noticed a refund when missing a rune or energy based attack.


When you miss you do not lose any rage. Just saying. Beside mana everyone else get refunded. Btw cs also cost mana if you wanna use that route. Missing a rune ability does not cost the rune, missing a combo point building ability refund energy.
Edited by Ragingclue on 2/8/2011 8:53 PM PST
74 Human Death Knight
780
thx for the blue reply.

but others have brought up legit concerns about how its functioning,rogues/ferals/dks-when a rogue or feral uses a finisher or cp point generator and if it misses or gets dodged parried,it doesnt put that ability on a cooldown,and it doesnt use the energy.same with dks,when a dk uses a strike and it misses it doesnt consume the runes.

i think its fair that if crusader strike misses,gets dodged or parried,then the ability isnt put on a cooldown.

if this change isnt made out of fairness.then ill write it off as the same type of logic that let shadow priests keep magic cleanse but ret couldnt keep it.
100 Human Paladin
12985
This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


I can get behind that. CS is the ability, the reward is holy power. However, as others in this thread have noted rogues, and DKs get "refunded" resource costs. In this case.. one could look at the CS cd as the resource. Perhaps on dodges and parries, paladins could regenerate 80% of the mana of the dodged/parried attack, and the cooldown reset?

That seems in line, and fair. It's not a reward, but it minimizes the punishment.
70 Tauren Druid
0
This "bug fix" needs to either be reverted. This is the easier change I would think.

or

CS needs to be changed so that it does not go on CD when it does not hit a target. Which, with 80% mana return added into the mix, would make it roughly equivalent to how other CP-building classes work.
90 Human Death Knight
6270
02/08/2011 8:52 PMPosted by Ragingclue
When you miss you do not lose any rage. Just saying. Beside mana everyone else get refunded. Btw cs also cost mana if you wanna use that route. Missing a rune ability does not cost the rune, missing a combo point building ability refund energy.

Okay, thanks. Wasn't aware.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
6800
This was a bug. A note for this has been added under the Paladin Bug Fixes section here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2166872

Missing attacks should not generate Holy Power. We generally don’t reward characters for failing to land attacks. Retribution paladins can improve their hit or expertise like other melee DPS specs do. Tanks don’t generally stack a lot of hit or expertise, but we think Protection paladins will still be able to tank just fine. Prot warriors for example miss Shield Slams.


You reward DK, rogues, ferals, and warriors when they miss by giving them energy, rage or ruins back, why are Prot and Ret Paladins so different on this concept. Also this seems to be a change for PvE but it is a horrendous change in PvP, you can't cap expertise in PvP, you can't get anywhere near gap especially with tanks and agi based class dodge rating. I would also argue that when it comes to melee you actually don't reward them but you don't punish them more than a GCD loss. It really isn't a reward but you don't overly punish.

The C/D of CS is equivalent to energy for rogues/feral, and Runes for DKs, the C/D is our resource and it is used to generate our secondary resource in Holy Power and going by the same standard you have established for them than Ret should be refunded the C/D of CS, it is overly punitive to for us to loose the mana the C/D and not get any Holy Power.

Ret and Prot already value expertise a lot and if we cap it too easily than take a look at the SoT glyph and change it, otherwise this change should be reverted. I have yet to see a reasonable explanation as to why we should not either have the C/D refunded or granted the Holy Power. I understand bugs should be fixed, but if this was a bug only affecting Paladins and it wasn't causing any sort of problems than why change it. This is the same sort of BS we put up with Judgment and mana regen all through Wrath, you finally changed that for Cataclysm but now you do this to us.

If you really feel that Paladins should not get the C/D or HP than i stress that we need another way to generate Holy Power at a 100% chance. The Ret rotation is very sluggish in this patch, iand this change makes it even worse. The rotation was already painful with all the RNG, and waiting for CS and this patch traded in RNG procs for rotation that has more wait and about the same amount of RNG. This creates a sluggish spec and this change to CS just makes everything worse.
Edited by Snitzngiggle on 2/8/2011 9:31 PM PST
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