Bear Armor Buff is way Over the mark

100 Worgen Druid
12055
02/09/2011 8:58 AMPosted by Arielle
The 6% AP loss from potp would have been more than sufficient to bring bear damage in line.

No it wouldn't have.

The nerfs to Mangle and Maul were justified. Perhaps a tiny bit overdone, but still justified.

The Pulverize nerf was kinda "meh". It wasn't necesarry but doesn't impact our threat enough for us to actually care.

The Lacerate nerf wasn't exactly necesarry, although it wouldn't have been so much of a problem if they hadn't have broken the Lacerate bleed in the process.

The changes wouldn't have been as glaring if they had bothered to fix Thrash in the process. But they didn't.
The data showed us less then 5% ahead of warriors in straightforward tank fights. (mostly 2-3%) A 6% nerf to AP would bring that down past where warriors are now to where warriors with the hero strike nerf are now.

85 Night Elf Druid
7180
I get that it's still important, I think inconsequential was the wrong word to use. I just rarely find myself hitting it as much as I used to, I still hit it fairly often, just that the rage to use threshhold is much higher than it's been the last 4 years. Went from about 30-60, for me.

It's still just a shock from Mauling every ~2.1 seconds to ~3-5 =/ Feels funny.
Edited by Feranel on 2/9/2011 9:11 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
The data showed us less then 5% ahead of warriors in straightforward tank fights. (mostly 2-3%) A 6% nerf to AP would bring that down past where warriors are now to where warriors with the hero strike nerf are now.

However, as previously mentioned, the data isn't exactly flawless.

The warrior tank population is something like double that of Ferals (or between 50 and 100% greater). Since the report only pulls the top 200, there's a higher chance that the top 200 Warriors are more attentive to their DPS/TPS than the top 200 Ferals.

Further, I don't think Warriors actively sacrifice DPS in order to increase their mitigation. Although I could be completely out to lunch on that one.

If a comparison between an equally geared and skilled Warrior and Feral was done where both are concentrating on maximizing DPS, I think you'll find that Ferals were a lot more ahead than they appeared.
100 Night Elf Warrior
19450


Warriors don't.



What?



This is relevant, how?



I lol'ed. SD is not "weak". It has problems in multiple incoming attacks within a short period, yes, but it is not "weak".



Irrelevant. See Warriors.



DKs are lower.



It's actually massively superior.

I appreciate what you're trying to say and all, but please use accurate information when doing it.


Block >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SD. SD is weak. Mine absorbs for 20k. My paladin got a 70k block last weekend. How is that even close? Edit - when i say my paladin, i mean the other tank.

And warriors have Impending Victory + Blood Craze + 6% healing

And forgive me if DKs had lower armor....they also have the best self-healing, 4x + what we have, and a bubble that they can control on the same ability.



Dude. What the hell are you on about Warrior self heals? No one specs those talent because of how abysmally bad they are. Blood crazy heals at max like 5k over a TEN MINUTE FIGHT. And Impending victory isn't much better. It was mathed out at one point that those talents save healers roughly 2-4 seconds of healing over a 10 minute fight, assuming 25 man group. It may be a little better in 10s, but not much.

Maybe if they redesigned them.

Granted with the change to dev and the talent reshuffle you could probably put points in IV now. maybe.
Edited by Matayas on 2/9/2011 9:42 AM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
19450
02/08/2011 3:12 PMPosted by Zarko
It's possible that the health bump is just a correction inherited from the tooltip update, which you'd probably notice pretty quick if you let something hit on you. But we can do that too of course, so we'll check it out.


Armor, not health.

You can see it on the character sheet.

What happened to GC? He actually would make sense.


Comedian and Theory crafter. You are a many layered individual.
100 Worgen Druid
12055
02/09/2011 9:18 AMPosted by Arielle
The data showed us less then 5% ahead of warriors in straightforward tank fights. (mostly 2-3%) A 6% nerf to AP would bring that down past where warriors are now to where warriors with the hero strike nerf are now.

However, as previously mentioned, the data isn't exactly flawless.

The warrior tank population is something like double that of Ferals (or between 50 and 100% greater). Since the report only pulls the top 200, there's a higher chance that the top 200 Warriors are more attentive to their DPS/TPS than the top 200 Ferals.

Further, I don't think Warriors actively sacrifice DPS in order to increase their mitigation. Although I could be completely out to lunch on that one.

If a comparison between an equally geared and skilled Warrior and Feral was done where both are concentrating on maximizing DPS, I think you'll find that Ferals were a lot more ahead than they appeared.
Yes, the data isn't perfect, but it's not completely off the wall, either. I lost more than 20% of my dps. That's absurd, and there was no call for it.

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Yes, the data isn't perfect, but it's not completely off the wall, either. I lost more than 20% of my dps. That's absurd, and there was no call for it.

However to be fair, part of that is a result of several inconsistencies/bugs that were introduced, compounded, or unchanged in 4.0.6.
85 Tauren Druid
7165
Was the bear damage problem related to Berserk, or independent of Berserk? I doubt anyone could say we weren't doing asinine amounts of damage every 3 minutes, but the non-berserk, single-target situation is less obvious in my narrow, non-statistically-significant experience.
100 Worgen Druid
12055
02/09/2011 9:45 AMPosted by Arielle
Yes, the data isn't perfect, but it's not completely off the wall, either. I lost more than 20% of my dps. That's absurd, and there was no call for it.

However to be fair, part of that is a result of several inconsistencies/bugs that were introduced, compounded, or unchanged in 4.0.6.
There was a whole series of errors, bugs, bug fixes, all compounded on top of each other to create the mess that is currently bears. I think the obvious explanation is that one designer was trying to balance as is, while another was messing with the mechanics, including things like removing potp, and they didn't talk to each other or bother to re-run the tests as bugs were fixed and introduced.

The result is a mess that should never happen with a team as veteran as blizzard's and is simply unconscionably sloppy.

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
02/09/2011 9:52 AMPosted by Athenodorus
Was the bear damage problem related to Berserk, or independent of Berserk? I doubt anyone could say we weren't doing asinine amounts of damage every 3 minutes, but the non-berserk, single-target situation is less obvious in my narrow, non-statistically-significant experience.

Both. Mangle and Maul were both hitting way too hard. Berserk just compounded that problem.

The proc was (apparently, no patch note to indicate this) supposed to go up to 50% for every Lacerate tick, but as far as we can tell that hasn't actually happened. And even if it did it would only at best gives us an extra Mangle every 9-12 seconds (give or take depending on latency and RNG). That isn't enough extra threat I don't think.

There was a whole series of errors, bugs, bug fixes, all compounded on top of each other to create the mess that is currently bears. I think the obvious explanation is that one designer was trying to balance as is, while another was messing with the mechanics, including things like removing potp, and they didn't talk to each other or bother to re-run the tests as bugs were fixed and introduced.

The result is a mess that should never happen with a team as veteran as blizzard's and is simply unconscionably sloppy.

I'll agree with you there. It's just a giant gigantic mess and nobody really knows what it supposed to be going on.
85 Night Elf Druid
7180
Honestly? Barring AW, Bears are really the only Tank with a threat cooldown of this nature, and even then, AW doesn't give you three target no cooldown Shield of the Righteous for 15-20 seconds.

Berserk is a very weird tanking talent, when compared with what other tanks have.
10 Gnome Rogue
70
02/08/2011 9:56 AMPosted by Earthwarden
No



Druids can out-avoid and out-mitigate any tank at physical and magic dmg without using a single cooldown...


There is always some class that is going to "out-avoid, out-dps, out-heal, out-cc" out-whatever. Quit your crying.
90 Troll Druid
0
The mangle nerf, I expected. It was ridiculous damage.

The maul nerf, not suprising. It was significant damage.

The LotP phantom bug fix with armor changes was confusing. I had no idea what was going on there. Not cool, I wish that had been communicated at ALL.

What really bothers me though is the Lacerate and Pulverize nerfs. I mean, I already don't want to touch those buttons if I wasn't forced to for the crit buff. They're so weak... And to be further nerfed? =/ If anything, they need buffs...
85 Tauren Druid
0
I even tweeted GC to see if I could get him to bite. No luck :(


somehow I don't think that was Ghostcrawler you tweeted :P
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
So, hey, Bashiok, s'up?
85 Tauren Druid
0
I think you should all stop complaining about SD and LOtP as heals.Bear tanks outhealed pally tanks last patch.


you can't even begin to compare Wrath LotP to Cataclysm Word of Glory....

Wrath was set up to throw enough damage at our relatively low helth pools that self heals were largely irrelevant, and the overheal=shield portion of a Paladin's self healing today just grinds any comparison to LotP face first into the dust.
90 Tauren Druid
9060
Idk about you all, I (used to) get 3.5k hps on some fights in bear.

I think you should all stop complaining about SD and LotP as heals.
Bear tanks outhealed pally tanks last patch.
Now, our heals are worse or equal, and our armor is better. I'd say in terms of mitigation, we're even. lol.

Or, I've seen terrible people from every other class.


I wouldn't really count savage defense as heals. That's like adding up all of the damage a paladin or warrior blocks over the fight and counting it as self healing. Druids still have the worst self healing out of the 4 tanks.
Community Manager
After the designers looked into this issue more, there appears to be a pretty complex series of bugs that may have led to where we are now. I'll do my best to explain.

Early on in Cataclysm, it was concluded that druid tanks took too much damage and we deployed a hotfix to buff their armor through Thick Hide. Originally, we had thought that 4.0.6 was just updating the Thick Hide tooltip as well as the armor display on the character sheet for the earlier hotfix, but we think now that the armor buff itself was actually correctly applied with 4.0.6, and the previous hotfix had never taken hold properly.

The reason we missed this is because there is no easy way to know what your armor actually is when you can’t trust the tooltip – you have to have things beat on you and see how much damage you take. This test was tainted by a second bug however, where some druid characters were invisibly retaining the 12% damage reduction benefit of the obsolete Protector of the Pack talent. Even though we removed that talent, its effects were still benefitting some characters, and we didn't know who or how many. Again, there is no easy way to know if your druid was affected without a lot of testing. We knew about the Protector of the Pack bug but were hesitant to try and mess with it too much via hotfix since bear survivability was where we wanted it to be for those characters and we didn’t want to risk making anything worse. In any event, those characters appeared to be taking the correct amount of damage, so we thought the Thick Hide hotfix was successful. In reality, we think we were seeing the Protector of the Pack damage reduction and not the Thick Hide armor buff.

We believe the 4.0.6 patch finally removed the Protector of the Pack effects while finally getting the Thick Hide buff applied. Characters who had the Protector of the Pack benefit won’t see their survivability change much (they lost damage reduction while gaining armor), while characters who lacked that talent will see their survivability improve (they gained a lot of armor). The good news is that current bear survivability in 4.0.6 appears to be where we want it to be for everyone.

We’re still not 100% sure that the above explanation is what happened, but it seems consistent with our observations. Again, as of 4.0.6, bear armor should now be correct.
85 Human Death Knight
12405
The good news is that current bear survivability in 4.0.6 appears to be where we want it to be for everyone.


For "everyone" as in all of the tanks should be around bear survivability, or all of the bears are at the survivability that you want them?
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