Bear Armor Buff is way Over the mark

85 Troll Druid
7040
And the 6% AP?

Was the 20% nerf still really needed?
85 Troll Druid
5410
Thanks Bash, much appreciated as always man.
85 Tauren Druid
0
02/09/2011 5:51 PMPosted by Bashiok
Again, there is no easy way to know if your druid was affected without a lot of testing.

/duel
"rake me!"
tick
tick
/cast bear form
tock
tock

/calculator

02/09/2011 5:51 PMPosted by Bashiok
We knew about the Protector of the Pack bug but were hesitant to try and mess with it too much via hotfix since bear survivability was where we wanted it to be for those characters and we didn’t want to risk making anything worse.


Thanks so much for chasing this explanation down for us Bashiok, but it looks like an awful lot of bears were left having much lower survivability than you wanted them to have while you were hesitating over this :(
(vague collective 'you' of course!)

and the bonus 12% magical DRmany of us have been running around with for a few months certainly seems to be a little over what was intended :)
100 Gnome Mage
16245
Thank you for the update, our guild is very fond of druids as we have a large number of druid alts. We have 1 bear tank in our 25 group, and I tank as a bear in our 10 man group. I appreciate the update for the armor change.

In respect to the threat change, any ideas? I can say that I had one hell of a time last night keeping threat off of the members of my party, which was mirrored in our 25's as our normal MT was missing and we used a bear tank, we had to hold off dps for a bit to prevent issues, it did cause some ugly wipes in the beginning.
90 Orc Warrior
10025
02/09/2011 5:51 PMPosted by Bashiok
The good news is that current bear survivability in 4.0.6 appears to be where we want it to be for everyone.


It seems like bears take much, much less damage than other tanks (Just damage taken, mind you). Do you plan to adjust other tanks in some way?

Do you see vastly different values of Savage Defense than theorycrafting would conclude? If so, are you planning to adjust Savage Defense in some way?
90 Night Elf Druid
7990
I regularly see 20-30k Savage Defense absorbs, which puts it right there with block on 60-80k hits. I also see substantial Savage Defense uptime on most bosses. The armor buff is also an indirect buff to Savage Defense. Calling SD weak is ignorant.
Edited by Daaria on 2/9/2011 6:18 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
0
It seems like bears take much, much less damage than other tanks (Just damage taken, mind you). Do you plan to adjust other tanks in some way?

Do you see vastly different values of Savage Defense than theorycrafting would conclude? If so, are you planning to adjust Savage Defense in some way?


just a thought Zarko,

your initial comparisons came to the conclusion that blizzard had balanced Bear's damage intake around the assumption we'd be reforging to dodge...

did you include a comparison between a 'bugged' thick hide bear who wasn't reforging to avoidance and other tanks?
Could it be that we've been balanced around reforging to threat stats (if reforging at all) and are currently 'sneaking' more DR than we should be seeing with the extra thousand or so Dodge Rating we're packing on?
Edited by Katjia on 2/9/2011 6:20 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
10025
I regularly see 20-30k Savage Defense absorbs. Calling Savage Defense weak is moronic.


Saying that bear damage intake is where they want it in 4.06 means one of two things:

A. They want bears to take significantly less damage than other tanks.
B. They have significantly lower amounts absorbed by SD than theorized by the community.

I don't know which is right.

Edit @ above:
your initial comparisons came to the conclusion that blizzard had balanced Bear's damage intake around the assumption we'd be reforging to dodge...

did you include a comparison between a 'bugged' thick hide bear who wasn't reforging to avoidance and other tanks?
Could it be that we've been balanced around reforging to threat stats (if reforging at all) and are currently 'sneaking' more DR than we should be seeing with the extra thousand or so Dodge Rating we're packing on?


If I do that, a bear with zero dodge rating, but still using agility generally, goes from 75% of a warriors' damage intake to 85%. So no, it's still not balanced. Also, there's zero reason not to reforge to dodge.
Edited by Zarko on 2/9/2011 6:24 PM PST
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
I for one welcome our new Druid Tank overlords.
100 Night Elf Druid
11215
The good news is that current bear survivability in 4.0.6 appears to be where we want it to be for everyone.


It seems like bears take much, much less damage than other tanks (Just damage taken, mind you). Do you plan to adjust other tanks in some way?

Do you see vastly different values of Savage Defense than theorycrafting would conclude? If so, are you planning to adjust Savage Defense in some way?


One of the lessons of this is that you shouldn't trust theorycrafting, because we don't know what other random things are going on.

If you want to see who's requiring more external healing, try parsing some logs.
Edited by Kalisti on 2/9/2011 6:21 PM PST
85 Human Death Knight
12405
02/09/2011 6:18 PMPosted by Zarko
I regularly see 20-30k Savage Defense absorbs. Calling Savage Defense weak is moronic.


Saying that bear damage intake is where they want it in 4.06 means one of two things:

A. They want bears to take significantly less damage than other tanks.
B. They have significantly lower amounts absorbed by SD than theorized by the community.

I don't know which is right.


This is what's bothering me as well.
85 Troll Druid
5410
I'll tell you right now, based on my kills last night, I required less external healing than my Warrior or DK counterparts, however, that is usually the case, because all things are not equal and I'm a more skilled tank.
85 Tauren Druid
11485
02/09/2011 5:51 PMPosted by Bashiok
We believe the 4.0.6 patch finally removed the Protector of the Pack effects while finally getting the Thick Hide buff applied. Characters who had the Protector of the Pack benefit won’t see their survivability change much (they lost damage reduction while gaining armor), while characters who lacked that talent will see their survivability improve (they gained a lot of armor). The good news is that current bear survivability in 4.0.6 appears to be where we want it to be for everyone.

Say... what about the 6% AP bonus from the bugged PotP? Affects survivability and threat. Losing that 6% and getting 20% nerfs to abilities is where you want threat to be? And Lacerate mitigated by armor?
90 Orc Warrior
10025
One of the lessons of this is that you shouldn't trust theorycrafting, because we don't know what other random things are going on.

If you want to see who's requiring more external healing, try parsing some logs.


Sorry, that's not a lesson I'm drawing at all.

The major lesson that I'm drawing from this fiasco is that Blizzard is poor at communicating bugs, and because of that, Druids most likely ate a 6% AP nerf unintentionally.
85 Tauren Druid
0
02/09/2011 6:18 PMPosted by Zarko
Also, there's zero reason not to reforge to dodge.


:) yes, I was going more for "how could they think it's fine" than "how could it actually be fine".

can we get closer to a warrior's damage intake if we stack stamina on top of reforging for expertise? :(
Edited by Katjia on 2/9/2011 6:29 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
9645
Thanks for the info bash. I'm prety sure I didnt have the PotP bug and was wondering why I seemed to considtantly take 10% ish more melee damage than comparably geared tanks I had been runing with. will see how things go.
100 Tauren Druid
8155
/duel
"rake me!"
tick
tick
/cast bear form
tock
tock

/calculator


Because those bleeds, you know... they totally don't ignore armor at all...
80 Draenei Death Knight
5245
02/09/2011 6:04 PMPosted by Zardonis
Even though we removed that talent, its effects were still benefitting some characters, and we didn't know who or how many.

Proof positive: Blizzard is clueless.

Could it be that they've developed a system so complex that even they don't know what's going on and it spooks them so much they're hesitant to do anything to fix the problems they create from not understanding what they're doing? Sounds a lot like the government, but that's beside the point.

Stop working on "Titan" and fix your cataclysmic failure.


Yeah what a failure... 12 million customers and rising.

Let's see you do better

P.S. They have different teams working on different projects. You think the WoW crew handles Diablo III as well?

Thanks for the update Bashiok
100 Night Elf Druid
11215
/duel
"rake me!"
tick
tick
/cast bear form
tock
tock

/calculator


Because those bleeds, you know... they totally don't ignore armor at all...


Conveniently, we do have a bleed that doesn't ignore armor.
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