Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

Firstly, This nerf is not the end of all things. Warriors will still be represented in arenas and overall playable. realistically we move down from 6 Gap closers a minute to four. but I think with this change there are some things that need to be addressed like:

1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.

2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.

1. I the best quote i can provide to sum up my thoughts towards Heroic Leap is "Don't Have a path not available in your heart". Heroic Leap has the potential to be great, but right now it leaves a lot to be desired. I suppose its only proper to talk about desires before reality; so I would really like to have Heroic leap become easier to use. right now the interface / actual gap closer itself is a little tricky to effectively place. that being said it can be very frustrating when the ability says "you cant use that right now" or "no path available" when you are depending upon it for a gap closer. my desire would be to see either the ability or the interface(which are probably the same) improved. whether it be a stun or a slow or a small root that is applied after we touch down, or simply making the way it is used (point to an area and "Jump" there) better.

Now time for everyones reality, lets start with the reality for warriors. We probably wont see heroic leap improved much past how it is now. and no matter how horrible this nerf may seem it is not that bad. now the reality for our good friends blizzard is that if you want to see warriors remain the Unique and beautiful class they are some of the problems with the class have to be addressed. I did not mention all of them but only the some of the most serious, that is of course in my opinion.

2. Before i make my points as to why this nerf seems harsh, I have to say the for the most part the way the warrior community has responded is abhorrent to me. This is not how I define my class, I do not define warriors as over-dramatic whiners who have a habit for grandstanding. This is not what were about.

But I have to say the nerf feels harsh for a couple reasons. First of all intercept was a crutch we all leaned on, whether or not leaning on it was just is not what i am here to discuss. ultimately if you take a crutch away from someone who can walk he stumbles for a while but he ends up walking away fine. and secondly we leaned on this crutch more than anything else in 1v1,that one gap closer followed by an immediate second ,that is to say in most 1v1 fights we used the crutch to bash people over the head. While blizzard does not balance the game around 1v1, there are a lot of people who rest the fate of their ego on 1v1, and it can be devastating to lose a duel.

Also on a deeper level there are those that feel our lose of mobility was coupled with a net gain of ranged Crowd control, who i am slightly inclined to agree with. But I will admit I am bias in this, I love dueling and that is where this nerf is felt the most.

In conclusion I would like to see the issues above addressed, while I know it is perilous to speak too early, I feel it is something that we as a class deserve.
Edited by Odus on 2/9/2011 2:39 PM PST
85 Tauren Warrior
We had 6 gap closers? Warriors will still be represented and played well as before? Are you listening to yourself?
1 Troll Warrior
All warriors need is a 70% hamstring speccable in throwdown or something. and it refreshes on slam or something.
85 Troll Rogue
I wish you could have a civil discussion about this, but the truth is the jugg nerf has never been explained, and won't be. Everyone is left scratching their heads.
100 Human Warrior
70% hamstring tired into MS and BT RB. Sounds fair to me.

Charge fixed so you cant jump it. HL ................. WORKING
Im sorry I meant to say six cap closers per minute its been edited
and its represented in arenas probably should have put that in there its been edited as well
Please let me know if theres anything else to be edited. I really want some response from the player base and blizzard, I hope my grammatical errors dont get in the way
85 Orc Warrior
We were fine with only 1 charge before the expansion because the other classes didn't have zillions of CC's, but now it's like giving a gun to 2 persons, suddenly taking away one, and expect a fair fight. Also, I propose adding a 0.5s stun with no diminishing return to Heroic Leap to make up for the delay after we land. But more importantly, fix the pathing system, HL simply cannot be considered a gap closer if it doesn't work most of the time.

edit: fixed grammar
Edited by Odgar on 2/9/2011 4:38 PM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
I'd like to see a good warrior at 2400+ say the state of warriors is ok. Then i'll stop QQing. Imho, warriors are dead last in pvp. I got 2k rating in 2s and plan on sitting at that rating and instead doing 5 games a week in 3s or 5s for my points. Forget competitive play.
70 Night Elf Warrior
nah, i want intercept back, ever since watching Laintime videos in 06 that's been my favorite thing about warrior is stance dancing and intercepting, not to mention how much they're dumbing down warrior...

a good stance dancer would stand out among the bad-average warriors.

take back throw down and give me intercept.
85 Human Warrior
Warrior's will be fine if they spec prot or fury. But even then they are still a liability due to the fact the class has absolutely 0 synergy with any of the other's in game. The two specs that were once regarded as the primary pvp specs (prot and arms) have now been placed on the back burner due to the buffs fury recieved.

Arms is now a dead spec in the game because fury outperforms arms in pvp and pve now, even when including the dps increase your raid receives from blood frenzy as arms, fury still out performs arms in dps.

The fact you won't be effected by this change means a few things either A: You were not utilizing the class mechanics correctly or B: you are respeccing fury

Either way this nerf was never explained and was completely un-needed due to the gross under-performance of the class as a whole in high end play in 2's 3's and 5's brackets of arena.
85 Orc Warrior
Except HL doesn't work and people still jump charge. OP is delusional thinking this is okay.
85 Orc Warrior
02/09/2011 2:11 PMPosted by Wreckful
We had 6 gap closers? Warriors will still be represented and played well as before? Are you listening to yourself?

per minute

read much?
85 Tauren Warrior

First of all I don't think you understand that pre 4.0.6. that warriors had the second WORST representation in high level arena above you think that's going to be improving with this nerf? especially seeing as hunters got roflbuffed by blizzard.

Secondly. Realistically 4 gap closers per minute...sure...but when you factor in that hamstring is the worst snare in the game that you have to waste every fifth global, and that classes like DK's and Ferals have utility ontop of having snares that are FAR superior to ours. Juggernaut nerf was a kick to the balls and honestly I would hope to see a hotfix for it, simply because warriors are a useless sack of trash compared to other melee classes that have automatically applied snares and defensive CD's that can't be hard countered, without even having a counter in the first place.

Reverting the changes wont help warriors at this point, warriors need a reliable snare, without that it's nigh impossible stay on targets and put out pressure as arms in any bracket.
85 Human Warrior
02/09/2011 5:38 PMPosted by Dienovv
We had 6 gap closers? Warriors will still be represented and played well as before? Are you listening to yourself?

per minute

read much?

he edited it. the original post said 6 gap closers, not 6 gap closers per minute.

Also, yea...arms is now dead or close to it. Im no beast of pvp, but the fact that its synergy with other classes(lack there of) and the nerfs to mobility/damage near kill the spec.

Here is a better question...what else did or do warriors bring in the form of synergy/utility? All we had was burst,intervene and mobility(required stance changes as well), hardly anything you don't see countered easily in mid/higher rated arenas. We were easily kited pre 4.0.6, now arms is a sad joke. I may not be great at pvp, but it doesen't take a gladiator imo to see the nerf was way overdone.

I will still use arms, becasue fury makes me rage and i dont feel like spending 3500+ conquest on another 2 hand/2 1 handers.
Amurru I was affected by the Nerf don't get me wrong , we all were effected by the change my self included. but at the same time a lot of people have made it out to be the end of the world and i just don't think thats fair. I really feel the loss but , I think learning to play with a handicap makes us understand and appreciate the class more. But I really understand what you mean you definitely loose an edge. the question becomes do your competitors have an advantage over your team simply because you are a warrior. thats where the line needs to be drawn.
85 Orc Warrior
Love the topic of this thread. Civil.

I'm simply appalled that blizzard hasn't so much as commented on the reasons for this change. Despite what the author of this post theorizes, this has huge gameplay implications on the feel the warrior class has had for more than an expansion now.

There are obvious reasons why this change is puzzling, especially the fact that arena representation, at an eye's glance, looks poor for warriors (, 5s and RBGs are also something to take into consideration, but it's harder to tell how many warriors fare well in RBGs. Here are some points I haven't heard discussed :

1. From a design perspective, what's the incentive to take a talent that concretely takes away more than it gives ? Blizzard has been known to do this with glyphs occasionally, but talents seem like they're much less of an option and defines a class much more strongly, especially when it's so far down the tree.
There's no interesting choice to make, no judgment of a trade-off, especially because throw down and blade-storm depend on it, so if you're arms, you have to pick up juggernaut.

2. This is essentially dumbing down the gameplay of the warrior class via disencentivizing of stance dancing. Arms was fun because it encouraged you to use all stances and adapt to different types of situations and play smart. Blizzard is taking a step in the opposite direction here.

We pay for this game, we stick around because we like it a lot, granted, but given the time and investment a lot of us put in, and given the scope of this change, an explanation wouldn't seem too much to ask. Blizzard has commented on specific class changes in the past, please provide some kind of explanation now.
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