Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

for the most part I am very happy with the level of the responses that have been given I would ask to please keep this quality. It is a discussion that may merit a Blue response, and i do feel that one is sorely needed on this subject.
While I thank you for the concern XzNight the best remedy for this kind of thing, in my opinion, is simply ignorance. ignore that kind of post and the person who posted it looses justification, and stops caring. But thank you very much for the consideration.
90 Human Warrior
10215
I have to say one thing about this patch its made me want to play this game less then every before.
90 Night Elf Warrior
0
I'm simply appalled that blizzard hasn't so much as commented on the reasons for this change. Despite what the author of this post theorizes, this has huge gameplay implications on the feel the warrior class has had for more than an expansion now.

There are obvious reasons why this change is puzzling, especially the fact that arena representation, at an eye's glance, looks poor for warriors (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/2v2, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/3v3). 5s and RBGs are also something to take into consideration, but it's harder to tell how many warriors fare well in RBGs. Here are some points I haven't heard discussed :

1. From a design perspective, what's the incentive to take a talent that concretely takes away more than it gives ? Blizzard has been known to do this with glyphs occasionally, but talents seem like they're much less of an option and defines a class much more strongly, especially when it's so far down the tree.
There's no interesting choice to make, no judgment of a trade-off, especially because throw down and blade-storm depend on it, so if you're arms, you have to pick up juggernaut.

2. This is essentially dumbing down the gameplay of the warrior class via disencentivizing of stance dancing. Arms was fun because it encouraged you to use all stances and adapt to different types of situations and play smart. Blizzard is taking a step in the opposite direction here.

We pay for this game, we stick around because we like it a lot, granted, but given the time and investment a lot of us put in, and given the scope of this change, an explanation wouldn't seem too much to ask. Blizzard has commented on specific class changes in the past, please provide some kind of explanation now.


/sigh stance dancing was fun while it lasted i guess... dumbing down warriors.


I have to say one thing about this patch its made me want to play this game less then every before.


same.



90 Night Elf Warrior
0
i think they want warriors to cancel their subscriptions tbh.. might as well, before u know it bladestorm will be snareable, then the only useful move we have AKA rend will be covered with a bandade
02/09/2011 7:20 PMPosted by Serium
i think they want warriors to cancel their subscriptions tbh.. might as well, before u know it bladestorm will be snareable, then the only useful move we have AKA rend will be covered with a bandade


I think that is a bit of stretch I can definitely understand how you feel but to act so irrational seems silly. Honestly there could be a million and one reasons this happened. And I think until we get some form of a response we should not make assumptions (even ones to provoke dread) about the future (no ESPECIALLY ones to provoke dread).

Serium I whole heartedly agree that a response is needed, but I think we should have patience. as much as all of us would like the to see and understand the logic behind this, it is NOT something that can be rushed.
85 Human Warrior
10060
The most shocking part of these changes is how they changed a core mechanic of arms and then never gave any logical explanations for it.
02/09/2011 7:37 PMPosted by Amurru
The most shocking part of these changes is how they changed a core mechanic of arms and then never gave any logical explanations for it.


With out a doubt, the only blue post thats been even rometly related so far to the subject has been

"We truly appreciate constructive feedback from players on proposed changes, however, please be aware that the use of obscene and/or harassing language in threads will often result in that thread being locked or, in extreme cases, removed. Also, players who persist in using this type of language will regrettably be taking a break from the forums, so please think twice before letting your emotions get the better of you.

We are reading and noting your feedback, but a locked or deleted thread accomplishes nothing. Presenting your thoughts in a clear and level-headed manner means it is far more likely to be taken seriously by us and the rest of the community." - Takralus

thats on the EU PTR forums the person put up a rather rude post about the topic it was labeled "Useless without intercept. Tested.". and blizzard did not like it not one bit.
In making this thread I am trying to directly respond to blizzard by presenting thoughts in a "clear and level-headed manner"
Edited by Odus on 2/9/2011 7:54 PM PST
85 Orc Warrior
1910
Make charge usable in combat with out putting a talent point in it.

I'd be fine with out bladestorm seeing as I only use it as a root remover.. Throwdown will be missed, but I'd gladly take my mobility back over a stun that every one knows to trinket out of anyway.
85 Human Warrior
5425
02/09/2011 1:49 PMPosted by Odus
1v1,that one gap closer followed by an immediate second ,that is to say in most 1v1 fights we used the crutch to bash people over the head.



We were not the only class based around this crutch..
it's why frost mages can root every 4.5 seconds instead of every 15 seconds

it's why elemental's eathbind totems root instead of slow

It's our blessing of freedom, our method to deal with slowing effects.

It's why hunters have masters call.

It's why warlocks have teleport

Why boomkins have cyclone root and a throwback

See what i mean? The blance between melee and range has always been about who can manage their Snares.. and snare releifs more effectively.. and then what your allies did to alleviate that or bait an oppenets..

I played a hunter for a pretty long time and learned alot about kiting and keeping people off me.

the number one thing i learned.. if you Save disengage, you win the match. (generally)

Now lets put this in perspective.

How can warriors save their 15 second charge to not be kited.

A.) run in on mount.

Sadly.. doesnt work.. we can get into melee range ona mount (assuming we caught tehm off guard..) but then we have no rage to sanre. (unless battleshout is cooled down)

B.)Piercing howl, after line of sight. again.. it costs rage rage we may not have at the begining of afight. and even then it's less of a slow then what any other class will apply to you.

C.)Heroic leap into the fight. where as this does put you into melee range. (again without rage by chance) it also removes one tool for the rest of the fight.. for when they do get away.


Now lets rewind to before the patch.

IF you charged in.. you had a starting pool of rage.. to get a good snare down (even if it is the weakest snare in the game) and then, if the opponent was dumb.. they would either A.) waste a full root and disengage/blink Etc. Allowing us to punish them for innaccurately predicting our movements. With intercept. Or B.) they'd use just a single root/ slow to get a fair distance from us without burning their Blink/disengage Etc. allowing them to punish us after intercepting improperly instead of forging for LoS

Now.. we just get punished for wanting rage as we enter combat.
90 Human Warrior
0
No offense but your definition of "civil discussion" seems to be a flower power circle jerk with the devs who implemented this half-brained neutering of our class. Do any of the guys working on class balance PLAY a warrior?

If I run out of patience leveling my rogue up to 85, I will probably just quit altogether, especially since Blizzard has not given us ONE RESPONSE that I know of, giving us any insight as to what made them think a change like this was a wise decision.

Our class isn't just bad, it's NO LONGER FUN. That is all, and good night folks
85 Human Warrior
5425
02/10/2011 1:04 AMPosted by Kernalsandas
devs who implemented this half-brained neutering of our class


Spaded for truth.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
8860
let me heroic leap up a hill.
85 Tauren Warrior
6200
I especially like the way we received Juggernaut and essentially lost the talent. It's funny. We received Juggernaut initially to combat the easily kite-able nature of our class. How did warriors close gaps before Wrath? Improved Intercept. Just one gap closer.


And now we're BACK to having one gap-closer, A faulty and unreliable ability on a minute cooldown, a terribad manually applied snare and no way to answer when a person decides to snare and kill from a distance. You won't ever catch a person on horseback. Not even with hamstring.

In Wrath, the talent tree that was supposed to be nothing more than a cute joke in PvP is now more versatile than the dedicated PvP tree some of us have been using forever. I'm not even sure why I still play this class anymore. I always felt that if I tried hard enough, I could overcome class disadvantages and win against another player while having fun. Not so sure about the latter, currently.
Edited by Artani on 2/10/2011 1:23 AM PST
85 Human Warrior
5425
I hate to say it nutters.. but just because arms is still a little more capable then fury doesn't mean it functions.. frost mages hit us harder now and we have even less of a chacne of staying on them.. they could get away when we had charge intercept and heroic leap.. this pretty much goes on for any ranged class..

a good hunter will use masters call when he gets double rooted then walk away as he's unsareable for 6 seconds and we get slowed.. not to mention disengage pin etc..

A good Druid will fake cast so we waste spell reflect then entangle and burn us..

A good Ele shaman will wait till charge is up and just drop a totem and wlak away to DPS.. keeping Tstorm for after 15 seconds..

A goodwarlock will (depending on spec) Felguard stun.. CoE ..Shadowfury.. before wasting his teleport..

A goodshadow priest will disarm us and walk away before burning dispersion..

Before our asnwer was intercept.. forcing them to use all of tose second abilities and then letting the fight come down to the next Gap maker/closer
85 Human Warrior
5425
02/10/2011 1:21 AMPosted by Artani
How did warriors close gaps before Wrath? Improved Intercept.


A few key notes about this.

A.) back then.. everyone else had a lot less roots and mobility

B.) if we werent put in combat early.. we could still charge in and get a few snares up
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