Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

90 Orc Warrior
02/18/2011 2:08 PMPosted by Ðubswift
It really seems like you are fumbling to put this game together without a clue. Im glad warriors got a nerf but rooting feral druids (the only class keeping mages in check) seems like you didnt put enough thought into the class in general. World of Warcraft has become the Mcdonalds of MMMO's. Heres your hotfix crapburger. just wait till something qual comes out and people stop playing wow.

You are as clueless as the person who decided to nerf Juggernaut was/is
90 Orc Warrior
I see a lot of warriors complaining about crippling poison. Do you understand why it's a 70% snare? You're asking that rogues be forced to go toe-to-toe with a 2 hand wielding plate class with high resilience. We would be fodder to you more times than not. You have bleeds which prevent re stealthing. You have high physical damage mitigation from armor, plus the extra damage reduction for plate. I also have positional requirements which make it so that I have to be able to get and stay behind you to do any kind of noticeable damage, and that noticeable damage crits for roughly 6k on plate with high resilience. How do you expect me to stand toe to toe with a warrior, with 130k+ hp, while my bread and butter damage ability is critting you for 6k? Honestly, think about it. Yes, I have combat readiness, I also have evasion, however...this is not going to save me long enough to actually have a chance of fighting you toe to toe and coming out the victor.

You're asking a highly fragile leather class to stand his ground and fight a warrior. We are not a warrior, we don't wear plate. We don't have anything for mitigation past our resilience. We have to kite you. It has been this way with Warrior Vs Rogue fights since the dawn of time. If we are forced into giving up 70% snare, effectively neutering us of being able to kite when needed, or being able to stay behind you in order to deal damage, you are effectively making the outcome of a warrior vs rogue fight 99.9% in your favor.

Like I just don't get it. While I understand hamstring is rather weak, nerfing another classes snare doesn't fix this. Make hamstring easier to use on demand. Make it also deal a portion of damage. Something. Ever since I've began playing a rogue, when going against a good warrior it absolutely required finesse. We had to know when to put up bleeds and kite, when to cc you, when you use our stuns, etc etc. Why? Because it's like a toyota corolla going head to head with a mack truck. If we are forced to stand toe to toe, you will win every time, and by nerfing crippling poison to match your snare, that is what will happen. Every single time. Hamstring in it's own right is very powerful because it cannot be dispelled. While a rogue can apply crippling poison rather quickly and consistently, it can still be dispelled. And even with our "better than average" snare, we are still finding it very hard to have any kind of noticeable uptime on many targets.

I think part of the problem is that Warriors seem to be assuming other people are smart enough to understand the rest of the arguement they are not typing out.

Your slow is fine for a 1v1 against us. However as has been pointed out, a billion times by people, the game is not balanced for that. Which is fine with Warriors for the most part.

The problem with rogue slow and mage control and other classes as well, is that in an arena a Warrior is easily taken out of the equation and left 10 yards away when we are the only class slowed to this extent. This then allows a crap load of up time on our teammates, while we posess almost no power to peal people off of them and also Warriors then get the enjoyment of feeling like a dead weight on the team dragging it down. A healer can not dispel everything from a Warrior to get the slow when they are filled with dots and debuffs hiding that slow underneath.

This brings up something that could help the situation.

Edited by Surtur on 2/18/2011 3:00 PM PST
85 Orc Hunter

Obviously it would need to be a little different as to keep it it's own flavor versus a rogue's waylay talent, but...

Homogeneity of abilities being a concern is long-gone dude, Rogues got Hunter Misdirect, DK/Mages got Hunter Freeze Traps on an AoE, Warriors/Ferals had The Beast Within, etc., etc.

Hell, even Hunters have Waylay now with 2/2 Concussive Barrage.
90 Orc Warrior
02/18/2011 2:44 PMPosted by Surtur

To add to this

Has there been any consideration to slow debuffs needing to be stacked?

Something like each frostbolt can add 10% slow until it stacks to the maximum of the spell now.

Or each Attack can add 10% slow per proc of crippling poison that successfully gets applied up until 70%?

Even 15% stacks would be acceptable. At least then we can not be slowed and ignored at the drop of a hat.

Or any other melee class for that matter.

They could then be dispelled in the same fashion. People feel dispels are too powerful on snares anyway so this way it would be a 1 for 1.
Edited by Surtur on 2/18/2011 3:06 PM PST
85 Undead Warrior
While I'm in a post that you guys are actually responding to about warriors:

On top of the current issues being addressed in this thread I'd like to comment on two others:

1: Spellreflect


2: Damage output while in defensive mode

-Spellreflect: I just transfered from a server where I had ~25 ping and could SR with some reliability. I am now on a server where I have ~90-100 ping and I absolutely cannot spell reflect to save my life(literally). The time it takes to put on my shield and cast the ability ends up having me sit in CC(many times with spell reflect active). The easiest solution I can see to this is to make spell reflect usable with a 2 hander. I understand that the devs and whatnot want warriors to be stance dancing and like the dynamic of warriors pulling out their sword and shield, but it is absolutely game breaking when I: 1. Can't get spellreflect off when I need it even though I am seeing the spell being cast and pressing my macro as hard as I can and; 2: I get CCd WITH spell reflect up. This is possibly one of the most aggrivating things I've experienced in WoW. I can see that I sucessfully used my ability but it didn't work anyways.

-Damage output while in defensive mode: Warriors lose a massive amount of pressure when forced to "d up" as opposed to other classes. I know you guys don't like us comparing our stuff to other classes, but it's an issue when nearly every other classes defensive abilities are so much better than the warriors. When we had shield slam it wasn't so bad. That was one of the things that disappointed me the most when I reactivated for cataclysm; seeing that we lost Shield Slam as arms. This one, however, I don't really have a solution to. I know warriors are asking for shield wall to be usable with a 2h on, but I don't know if that's the best solution. Maybe a talent in the arms tree that makes us do more damage when we take damage like vengance in prot, or that simply makes us do a significant amount more damage when we have a sword and shield on?
85 Worgen Druid
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.

This statement makes the druid mobility nerfs make more sense, but honestly, it completely changed my play style as Balance. I need cheetah powershifting at times in battlegrounds, not cheetah->Moonkin->Cheetah which robs me of a GCD to do the same thing all just because ferals had too much uptime on their targets.

If you look at arena success, it's more than likely going to be a class that has instant spells or abilities. Long cast times like Starfire are extremely difficult to use in pvp unless you are hiding in the bushes. Everything a warrior does is instant cast, which plays a huge part in how the combat against casters fares.

02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Going back to the point though, we didn't want to funnel warriors into speccing into Fury, and that was never the intention. While it would be nice if both specs were equally viable for PvP and PvE, we realize that's a tough goal to meet. On the other hand, if Fury is the best spec for both PvP and PvE and Arms is left with nothing, then that's not a great place to be either.

I would hope the designers focus on unique abilities and contributions of each spec rather than endorsing one spec over another as viable in pvp due to their inability to create a balanced pvp game.
Edited by Goldenclaw on 2/18/2011 3:18 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Warrior
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.

Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.

So going from maybe 60% uptime from slows and root effects (mostly instant abilities or procs) to once every 15 seconds when charge is up?

1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.

Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.

How can you say that warriors have gotten used to high mobility when so many classes have roots and slows? As a warrior in arena we almost constantly have needed all freedom esque abilities and constant dispells. Especially when fighting mages.

I don't see how submitting a report to where heroic leap isn't working, because it isn't working EVERYWHERE.
85 Worgen Warrior
If you cant tell by now Blizz loves casters over melee it should be crystal clear warriors get the shaft
90 Undead Warrior
The only issue I have with leap is the field icon. It really shouldn't show "green" if you actually can't leap there. I can appreciate not allowing us to jump over obstacles or uphill (somewhat). Really, a simple red mark or "x" would be better then preparing a leap into the middle of a group, have the cc start, and then find out that your leap won't work and the group wipes a heroic due to it.

As a whole I like the ability, especially when tanking 4 or 5 man groups. I do wish I could leap off of stairs sometimes, or over a rail or something, but that's life.

Given, I don't play a lot of PVP, so my opinions are really only directed to PVE instances.
85 Worgen Warrior
LOL do we really need to open a ticket about every surface that isnt flat thats kind of dumb imo. You guys made this game you know how the mechanics of this ability work so why is it up to players to point out what you allready know?
Edited by Rileyfreeman on 2/18/2011 3:29 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
Things I think we need

- Automatically applied snare. At least 50%, 60-70% preferred. Possibly an ability/talent that roots the target in place to replace Hamstring.

- Easier functionality. If I want to take less damage, I shouldn't have to equip a shield and stay neutered for 12 seconds. Same if I want to reflect a spell. Or, at least, having a shield equipped shouldn't neuter my damage. If I want to pop my cooldowns, I shouldn't have to take 20-25% extra damage as a result. If abilities like Avenging Wrath come with no side-effects, neither should ours.

- More snare/root breakers, or something like Death's Advance. Control like stuns/fear/hexes are fine and we'll work through them, but now that basically everyone has a snare or a root, we spend a lot of time rooted to the ground like sitting ducks, or too slow to catch up to casters. Right now, our only abilities like this are Bladestorm and Heroic Fury, but they're shoehorned into other effects (AOE damage, refreshing Intercept), so if we use them just to break a root, it makes things even worse for us.

- Fixed, or replaced Heroic Leap. You said it yourself that Heroic Leap has currently got some of the most complex coding in the game, and it still doesn't work most of the time. Rather than spend months getting a working version down, you should perhaps change what Heroic Leap should be - or perhaps replace it with an entirely different ability.

- Fury immunity to enrage-dispel mechanics. One of their core abilities, Raging Blow, is dependent on Enrage effects existing on the player. Unlike other abilities on other classes, no buffs doesn't mean a weaker effect - it means we are completely unable to use it, and this leaves us seriously neutered as a result, considering the dispels cost low resources (20 Energy/Focus, ~7% base mana) and that they're instant. If you want to keep the Fury abilities where they are (Mastery focused on enrage effects, abilities dependent on Enrage effects), you need to give Fury warriors some immunity towards this easily spammable PvE ability.

Things I think are fine

- The amount of damage our abilities do. I can't speak for PvEers, but our abilities do competitive damage compared to other DPSers, it's just that our incredibly low uptime results in us being far less useful to an arena team than, let's say, a Death Knight. Or even better/worse, a Frost Mage or a Shadow Priest. Buffing our PvP damage will just result in us steamrolling the worst players around, and this will result in us being nerfed back again, resulting in nothing fixed.

- Our gap-closers. If the above is looked at, then really, we could live with Juggernaut the way it is. What I'm trying to say here is we won't be so dependent on gap-closers if it wasn't so infinitely easy to make a gap. Reforming Heroic Leap into a functional gap-closer (or giving us a different ability that boosts mobility) would definitely take a lot of the hurt off of warriors as they are.
Edited by Blackclaw on 2/18/2011 3:37 PM PST
85 Undead Warrior
what about protection :( im beginning to think its left in the dust.
90 Orc Warrior
02/18/2011 3:39 PMPosted by Altaerus
what about protection :( im beginning to think its left in the dust.

In Bg's it seems good, in Arenas I am not sure it needs a place except maybe in 5v5... maybe
85 Orc Warrior
My take on Heroic Leap.

I am assuming that when the target is green, it should have already computed the path. The issue is not that Heroic Leap doesn't work, but it's notification is not working. When red, I get it, I can't jump there, but when green, it should always allow me to jump there. The issue is clicking when it is green, and then have it do nothing.

Area of instance. In Twin peaks, and going up the front ramp of Alliances keep. Target is always green, but jump never occurs.

As long as the notification marker is telling you 100% of the time you can or cannot jump there, that would be a start. Allowing for it to jump up slight inclines is a second part worth looking at.
85 Worgen Warrior
One last thing rift aint looking so bad now atleast you can use leap in any case as long as you dont go over the range..... food for thought
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