Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

85 Tauren Warrior
6200
I know. I'm not saying it's right. I was just commenting on the complete irony that we have pretty much come full circle, but in a worse place now because of said snares/roots
85 Human Warrior
5425
Yeah i was pretty much saying it's worse then before.

i'm trying to figure out which of my characters to level next..

I have a ret pally.. hunter.. DK..and enhance shammy.
85 Orc Warrior
9315
The juggernaut nerf is far more substantial than you actually give credit for. Especially at a higher level or against people who know how to play.

The arms spec is not viable in pvp at the moment, and fury certainly has its faults as well.

Warriors are the worst class in PvP in 4.0.6
Edited by Annihilate on 2/10/2011 2:42 AM PST
Once Again, I thank mostly everyone for the quality of response. Please keep these Ideas coming.

I think theres definitely something to be said to the fact that we have less mobility and all ranged have more snares roots / knock backs. I think that really comes down to the issue of whether you are compatible with your team or not, Blizzard did say arenas would be about Skill and tactics and less about class composition. I Raise the question do all of you think warriors have become the exception to this rule. seeing as we need to have a group that makes us more mobile. Essentially do we now have to be more careful as to what classes we do arena with?
85 Orc Warrior
2650
I have a number of views on this.

1. Players have got to stop saying things like "They can take away X instead if only we had Y". It is patently clear over the years that Warrior class design has been heavily designed around penalties; which in many cases end up being removed eventually. Being designed around heavy penalites has to stop.

2. Part of the Juggernaut 'Nerf' was to restore the cooldown of Charge to the normal 15 seconds. This is a good thing. (see 1.)

3. The rest of the Juggernaut 'Nerf' serves as a penalty for being able to Charge in combat. (again, see 1.)

4. Heroic Leap has the potential to be excellent. However until Blizzard can fix it, they should just carbon copy the Goblin Racial Rocket Jump as a placeholder, perhaps adding just a bit more height and distance.

5. The Warrior class, and indeed true Melee specs in general, suffer to varying degrees from being kitable. This is about as much fun for the Melee players as being Stun locked. Very long Stuns have now been removed from PvP. I suggest that Melee kiting is the new Stun Lock and needs to be addressed fairly. Ranged need counters, sure, but Melee need not to spend entire games kited to death.
Edited by Ruck on 2/10/2011 4:17 AM PST
85 Orc Warrior
7755
You really can't look at it like 4 gap closers a minute instead of 6. The problem is that the majority of classes have gap makers on pretty short cooldown. If our Heroic Leap is on cooldown then after we charge, if they make a gap we can't get on them. We charge again, they make another gap, we can't get on them. Now this is exaggerated a bit but it's more about being able to use multiple gap closers at once to stay on a target. Heroic Leap on a 1-minute (or 45 second) cooldown just isn't quite there.
90 Human Warrior
21010
02/10/2011 4:31 AMPosted by Overture
You really can't look at it like 4 gap closers a minute instead of 6. The problem is that the majority of classes have gap makers on pretty short cooldown. If our Heroic Leap is on cooldown then after we charge, if they make a gap we can't get on them. We charge again, they make another gap, we can't get on them. Now this is exaggerated a bit but it's more about being able to use multiple gap closers at once to stay on a target. Heroic Leap on a 1-minute (or 45 second) cooldown just isn't quite there.


Exactly, they could make charge a 12 or even 10 second cooldown and it wouldn't fix the problem. We'd have the same number of gap closers per x interval as before, but we would still be worse off.

The problem is the gap arms race. Blizzard decided at the end of wrath that they didn't like how cc had become an arms race in pvp, they'd give some classes more cc, then have to give their counter classes talents to reduce the duration, or abilities to break it, etc. They attempted to tone that down, but we have another similar/offshoot arms race going on now. Ranged versus melee, gap closers versus gap openers. What's even more ridiculous is that it's not just melee v ranged for warriors. Warriors can be kited by melee too!

So many classes have escape tools, but more importantly they can chain escape tools together. We're also the only melee class that does not have access to a 15% move talent in any tree, so we will never be faster than anyone. Charge jumping and heroic leap's bugginess are also huge culprits here as the gap closers that we are left with, can be quite unreliable at times.

Even with a partner giving you freedom, cleanses, etc. it's very difficult to catch and stay on a good ranged player.
Edited by Softenrage on 2/10/2011 5:19 AM PST
85 Night Elf Warrior
7135
I have been playing since 2005-6, playing a warrior from just before bc, The Most fun thing about my warrior was stance dancing and charging it's what made a warrior fun, I loved stance dancing and doing all the cool stuff that warriors can do.

Heroic leap Fails at least 50% of the time, due to the terrain you are on, This is a clear disadvantage because when it does fail you have just wasted "x" amount of seconds trying to use the dam thing but inevitably failing misrebly,

Charge jumping has been going on for years but I learnt to live with it even tho it was a clear disadvantage. Most of us could just switch stance and blow our second charge just to catch this target or be ready for a quick fear before the target got out of range.


There is clearly issues that need to be resolved here.

Why did they do this, what was the valid reason for putting both charges on the same CD, I really would like to see a blue response here, I think we all deserve one, at least a explantion for this.

please revert the changes to charge / Intercept.

To take ones mobility away is to take one soul.
85 Undead Warrior
8445
Love the topic of this thread. Civil.

I'm simply appalled that blizzard hasn't so much as commented on the reasons for this change. Despite what the author of this post theorizes, this has huge gameplay implications on the feel the warrior class has had for more than an expansion now.

There are obvious reasons why this change is puzzling, especially the fact that arena representation, at an eye's glance, looks poor for warriors (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/2v2, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/3v3). 5s and RBGs are also something to take into consideration, but it's harder to tell how many warriors fare well in RBGs. Here are some points I haven't heard discussed :

1. From a design perspective, what's the incentive to take a talent that concretely takes away more than it gives ? Blizzard has been known to do this with glyphs occasionally, but talents seem like they're much less of an option and defines a class much more strongly, especially when it's so far down the tree.
There's no interesting choice to make, no judgment of a trade-off, especially because throw down and blade-storm depend on it, so if you're arms, you have to pick up juggernaut.

2. This is essentially dumbing down the gameplay of the warrior class via disencentivizing of stance dancing. Arms was fun because it encouraged you to use all stances and adapt to different types of situations and play smart. Blizzard is taking a step in the opposite direction here.

We pay for this game, we stick around because we like it a lot, granted, but given the time and investment a lot of us put in, and given the scope of this change, an explanation wouldn't seem too much to ask. Blizzard has commented on specific class changes in the past, please provide some kind of explanation now.


Quoted for truth, justice and the American way!
85 Blood Elf Warrior
4185


Love the topic of this thread. Civil.

I'm simply appalled that blizzard hasn't so much as commented on the reasons for this change. Despite what the author of this post theorizes, this has huge gameplay implications on the feel the warrior class has had for more than an expansion now.

There are obvious reasons why this change is puzzling, especially the fact that arena representation, at an eye's glance, looks poor for warriors (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/2v2, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/3v3). 5s and RBGs are also something to take into consideration, but it's harder to tell how many warriors fare well in RBGs. Here are some points I haven't heard discussed :

1. From a design perspective, what's the incentive to take a talent that concretely takes away more than it gives ? Blizzard has been known to do this with glyphs occasionally, but talents seem like they're much less of an option and defines a class much more strongly, especially when it's so far down the tree.
There's no interesting choice to make, no judgment of a trade-off, especially because throw down and blade-storm depend on it, so if you're arms, you have to pick up juggernaut.

2. This is essentially dumbing down the gameplay of the warrior class via disencentivizing of stance dancing. Arms was fun because it encouraged you to use all stances and adapt to different types of situations and play smart. Blizzard is taking a step in the opposite direction here.

We pay for this game, we stick around because we like it a lot, granted, but given the time and investment a lot of us put in, and given the scope of this change, an explanation wouldn't seem too much to ask. Blizzard has commented on specific class changes in the past, please provide some kind of explanation now.


^^ this
90 Tauren Warrior
7190
While I am as upset as the rest of the people posting within this thread, there is still one side to this nerf that has not been discussed. Tanking. In fact that was the only side to warriors that did not get smacked. Personally, I am under the impression that Blizzard smacked DPS warriors in hopes that it would drive warriors across all servers to go back to tanking and there by quiet the throngs of people moaning about not being able to find tanks.
If you look back over patches in the past, blizzard has over done it on more than one occasion with "destroying" a class (mages excluded).
The damage nerf or buff in one case as well as the lack of comment from blizzard does not bother me but to completely destroy a warriors mobility which is the only thing that makes us a viable dps is a little too much. As said before HL is not a viable alternative to intercept.

I am slightly optimistic in the end however that Blizzard will note this and hopefully hotfix the mistake they made with intercept and charge.
85 Orc Warrior
7755
02/10/2011 7:19 AMPosted by Hittingbills
I am slightly optimistic in the end however that Blizzard will note this and hopefully hotfix the mistake they made with intercept and charge.


I was slightly optimistic when the nerfs first started coming in. I was still slightly optimistic up until about 2 weeks before the patch actually came out. Now I don't have much faith.
85 Orc Warrior
2650
02/10/2011 7:19 AMPosted by Hittingbills
Personally, I am under the impression that Blizzard smacked DPS warriors in hopes that it would drive warriors across all servers to go back to tanking and there by quiet the throngs of people moaning about not being able to find tanks.

It's probably unlikely, but I do get your point. Blizzard tried to engineer a situation where there were more tanks with the Death Knight class, but they've since been reduced to one tanking tree like us Warriors.

I don't believe they are trying to push Warriors towards tanking. Normally it's something you want to do. I tanked a lot in classic on my main Warrior, in BC I focused more on my PVP, in Wrath I tanked once or twice. Tanking was very very easy on my Druid during Wrath and made Warrior tanking seem inferior.

There are great Warrior tanks out there, but I'm not likely to join their ranks (I was never that good tanking anyway) just because they damaged my prefered Talent Tree.

85 Orc Warrior
5705
02/09/2011 6:51 PMPosted by Thralka
We pay for this game, we stick around because we like it a lot, granted, but given the time and investment a lot of us put in, and given the scope of this change, an explanation wouldn't seem too much to ask. Blizzard has commented on specific class changes in the past, please provide some kind of explanation now


Agree 100%

Couple issues I'm seeing that is making Arms PVP at its current post-patch state incredibly frustrating.

Charge DR- Charge puts itself on DR so technically, you cant charge right away again when its up because of DR. This is extremely frustrating in arenas as hunters or mages kite warriors WAY too easily. Nothing worse than you charging to close the gap and seeing your charge get "immune" and the hunter disengages for a kill.

Heroic Leap- Fix it. "No path available" and "You cant use that here" is EXTREMELY frustrating in arenas. With warrior mobility being what it is now, we just cant compete with other melee with sticking to a target. Heroic Leap as I'm sure you have heard isn't reliable at all. 1 minute CD is also pretty long imho.

Piercing Howl- Got taken off Drums of war. This in conjunction with with my previous 2 issues makes that change all that more frustrating. The rage cost will tax your damage over longer fights.

Now I'm all up for balancing, but this is too far. Arms Warriors do good damage yes, but this is IF and a big IF they can stick to a target. DKs are replacing Warriors in every comp. Their ability to not get slowed with Deaths Advance paired with Grip, Chains, Ghoul Stun, and oh btw the most POWERFUL MS EFFECT ever made in Necrotic Strike makes Arms Warriors an afterthought. Fury is just not a play style I like and their damage is bursty but unreliable. Yes Fury warriors are screen-shotting some amazing numbers... but in a competitive arena stage Fury doesn't offer enough utility and are easily countered by massive CC when recklessness is used and Hunters, Rogues, and Druids easily taking off enraged effects.

I believe Arms Warriors need to be looked at again by your dev team. I don't want to play a DK, I want to play Arms Warrior for PVP. I'm feeling almost forced by my peers to gear a DK in order to stay competitive.
85 Orc Warrior
5705
Btw Tanking PVE is completely separate from Arms PVP.

the argument of 'blizz nerfing arms warrior mobility in order to make them stop PVPing and go PVEing as tanks." dosnt make any sense. They are two different spectrums of the game that are completely unrelated.

So stop that... after these nerfs making me want to quit or re-roll the LAST thing i want to do is go spec tank and tanks some dungeons
85 Tauren Warrior
5675
Intercept and Charge need to be separate CDs, even if the CD of intercept were to be increased by 40s i would find it acceptable.

I dont mind 4 gaps in a min, i do mind not having the aviability of 2 gap closers in 10s (3 with HL, not viable, still kittable), difference between watching hunters, mages.. name it kitting all day or an actual fight.

If to slowly kill stance dancing because is to complicated is used as an excuse, better just rather eliminate stances completely. The only reason to change berserkers is recklesness, and to defensive for intervene, disarm, wall.

We need some serious scope of the capabilities of the warriors in terms of utility in a pvp enviroment with the upcoming changes. Hamstring is effectibly the worst slow rage requirement make it unflexible, yet primary ability in a warriors arsenal.
90 Human Warrior
6370
The fact alone that when pvping as arms, the ONLY reason to EVER go zerker stance is to pop Recklessness is absolutely absurd. Add in pummel in all stances and I almost want to question having stances at all. Continuing to dumb down our class is a disturbing trend.

Top that off with 8 sec hammy at 50% and no more free piercing howl? Staying on a target without a teammate with a better snare can be extremely annoying, especially with any sort of latency. All the while our 'role rival' DK's Death's advance with desecration everywhere and ranged snares makes them very hard to peel with relatively no effort by the DK.

Arms has always been the marquee and more interesting spec for pvp. I can't stand that it was changed in such a ridiculous way. I fully realize toning down was needed, but not to the point where the spec is nowhere near enjoyable to play. I bring absolutely nothing to the table for my teammates that a DK or Hunter can't do equally as effective or better.

Alot of what I said is probably rehashed from the rest of the thread, sry.




oh... and CHARGE JUMPING is cool

ugh, I need an aspirin.
90 Pandaren Warrior
9570
02/09/2011 6:51 PMPosted by Thralka
This is essentially dumbing down the gameplay of the warrior class via disencentivizing of stance dancing


We're a few nerfs away from being a ret pally with no heals or bubble=(
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