Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

85 Worgen Druid
1480
I guess their vision for WoW pvp for melee classes is they exist to give casters and hunters entertainment via kiting. As we cannot do any damage outside the 4 seconds of stun that an intercept will bring. Trinket 2 min cooldown. Blink 15 second cooldown with runspeed built in, roots, stuns, slows, fear. It's a literal cc storm of crap we have to wade through to do a little damage. Great vision... if your not melee.
90 Human Warrior
13500
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.


Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.

Going back to the point though, we didn't want to funnel warriors into speccing into Fury, and that was never the intention. While it would be nice if both specs were equally viable for PvP and PvE, we realize that's a tough goal to meet. On the other hand, if Fury is the best spec for both PvP and PvE and Arms is left with nothing, then that's not a great place to be either.

As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in both PvP and PvE, and we might adjust that soon. This isn't a solution to current PvP viability issues, and we understand that. I'm just mentioning it because we're on the subject of Arms and it's worth noting. While we’re on the subject of stuff ‘worth noting’, we also don’t like jumping to avoid Charge, so we're examining some potential solutions for that too.

We're not looking at changing the talent trees at the moment, since we’re very happy with both the Arms and Fury trees as well as the results of some of our core mechanics changes, such as normalizing rage, redesigning Heroic Strike and changing stance penalties.

1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.


Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.


Thank you to both posters for addressing any of this at all.


1. Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine.

I think almost the entire warrior population would gladly remove the Heroic Leap ability from
the game entirely for a reversion to the juggernaught nerf.

2.We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective.

By this logic the ability should not be in the game.

3. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

85% of situations in battlegrounds the ability will not go off. The ground simply isn't level enough.

4.It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.

Honestly it would take less times to count the instances in which the ability does work.

5. melee in general just had too much up-time on casters

casters have 100% uptime on melee so long as they are within range and not locked out of their school.





90 Dwarf Warrior
0
I'm kind of curious as to why Frost mages still have has much keep away abilities as we had keep in abilities. I mean why do they really need those abilities now that evil Warriors have been balanced?
85 Blood Elf Warrior
5370
just bring intercept back and improve hamstring so i dont have to spent every gcd reapplying
85 Worgen Warrior
2295
night claw why dont you make a thread about it this is the warrior section?
85 Worgen Warrior
2295
night claw why dont you make a thread about it this is the warrior section?
85 Dwarf Warrior
3495
Hamstring is already the worst (8 second no dmg) snare in the game.
You nerf warrior mobility...
People jump to avoid charge...
Heroic Leap is unreliable in pvp if the terrain is not completley flat...
Arms is so bad people are spec'd either Fury and even Prot.

I have played a few BG's as Arms. I would compare it to being a moving training dummy.
90 Orc Warrior
10290
So the forum bads cry and cry and cry about getting well-deserved nerfs until they get buffed again. Well good job Blizzard. Nice work reinforcing the very thing you say you don't want to happen or do (making judgements based off forum crying).

Arms mobility WAS overpowered before. 100% uptime on a target WAS NOT necessary. You got nerfed and now because you can actually get kited you come here and cry endlessly, completely ignoring that your mobility is fine with a dispeller in your team (which EVERY organised team has).

You can't have 100% uptime, you can't even have 75% uptime without a healer because pairing you with a healer makes your uptime overpowered.

You were spoilt to death with Juggernaut but you cry anyway, irrespective of the fact you have the best cooldown in the game available (Colossus Smash) and that stupid throwdown. But that's not enough! You need more utility! You're getting more utility! What a joke.

You downplay your abilities and exaggerate weaknesses (jumping charge is NOT a problem now with the 5 second stun). You complain because all your stuns share diminishing returns, well GUESS WHAT? EVERYONE elses do too. Mage/rogue would be ridiculously overpowered if they didn't, for example.

But good job. Good job for crying until Blizzard do something. Good job Blizzard for balancing a class and then caving to the bad players on these forums. Nice work all round.



Show me were the bad warrior touched you......
90 Human Warrior
10245
So the forum bads cry and cry and cry about getting well-deserved nerfs until they get buffed again. Well good job Blizzard. Nice work reinforcing the very thing you say you don't want to happen or do (making judgements based off forum crying).

Arms mobility WAS overpowered before. 100% uptime on a target WAS NOT necessary. You got nerfed and now because you can actually get kited you come here and cry endlessly, completely ignoring that your mobility is fine with a dispeller in your team (which EVERY organised team has).

You can't have 100% uptime, you can't even have 75% uptime without a healer because pairing you with a healer makes your uptime overpowered.

You were spoilt to death with Juggernaut but you cry anyway, irrespective of the fact you have the best cooldown in the game available (Colossus Smash) and that stupid throwdown. But that's not enough! You need more utility! You're getting more utility! What a joke.

You downplay your abilities and exaggerate weaknesses (jumping charge is NOT a problem now with the 5 second stun). You complain because all your stuns share diminishing returns, well GUESS WHAT? EVERYONE elses do too. Mage/rogue would be ridiculously overpowered if they didn't, for example.

But good job. Good job for crying until Blizzard do something. Good job Blizzard for balancing a class and then caving to the bad players on these forums. Nice work all round.

As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in... PvP


And just #*@%ing L O L at this



Go try playing a warrior.
We'll be waiting for your apology.

They are bland, boring, and bring nothing. They use to bring high pressure and damage with little utility. They required babysitting and brought little protection for their team. But with a healer who could take care of itself, a warrior with MS and high up time was a valuable trade off for cc and survivability.


Cata gutted warrior defenses, removed ms, and gave them a stun with more mobility to counter more cc. The class became about tunneling damage but was still fun to play

The last patch gutted mobility and cut burst damage. It also made sure throw down and charge screwed everyone else on the team. Warriors pressure (the only thing left now that ms is gone) is no longer existent.

So, they need buffs.
Edited by Bigjuicy on 2/18/2011 5:45 PM PST
85 Night Elf Warrior
9565
2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.

Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers.


Your solution to reduce warriors' enhanced mobility was to destroy ALL warrior mobility. This is overkill and highly unfair.


Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee

More choices? Negative. You introduced a 15 second 100% damage reduction to warriors equaling the cooldown of charge. On cases where a "chase" was involved, like on flag carriers... the 100% damage nerf is longer. Because the flag carriers are LONG gone by the time we're out of CC. Just because we're out of CC and mobile, does not mean we are in any position to be in melee range. Being outside of melee range = 100% damage reduction.


it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either.

A more rational solution than to destroy uptime on targets might be to remove heroic leap as a third potential gap closer. Charge/Intercept mechanics have been a warrior staple for years. It was poor judgment to add heroic leap, which really causes the "enhanced mobility" problem (which is a suspect assertion given the level of CC and roots/snares warriors are susceptible to) to begin with. Instead of removing a buggy and unreliable gimmick ability, you got rid of a warrior play-style in the stance-dance that's been around for years and undermined the need for changing stances period.


1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.

Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums.


What would help? You are saying it is difficult to code. We are saying the talent as is is not effective in combat. I use it often-- but just as often I waste time trying to use it only to see "You cannot use that here" or "No path available" on the error line. I don't know what else to say that would be useful. You give us a talent that is broken 50% of the time and assert that it's cool and unhelpful to complain about it.

Maybe instead of paying $14.99 for World of Warcraft subscription I should pay only $7.49 and send you a note saying "It's not helpful asking for the other half of the payment."


Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.


A report is unnecessary. We have been repeatedly telling you the talent is 100% ineffective under the following scenarios.

1) THERE IS TERRAIN OF A GRADE GREATER THAN ZERO.

2) THERE IS ANY MODELED FEATURE BETWEEN THE POINT OF ORIGIN AND THE INTENDED DESTINATION

If these two hindrances are intentional... then I'm sorry but they make Heroic Leap a worthless, useless, poorly conceived, designed, coded and implemented talent. That is how your warrior community feels no matter how cool you think it is or how unhelpful you think we are being.

Regards,

-Elanthiar
Edited by Elanthiar on 2/18/2011 5:40 PM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
13890
Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.

A report is unnecessary. We have been repeatedly telling you the talent is 100% ineffective under the following scenarios.

1) THERE IS TERRAIN OF A GRADE GREATER THAN ZERO.

2) THERE IS ANY MODELED FEATURE BETWEEN THE POINT OF ORIGIN AND THE INTENDED DESTINATION

If these two hindrances are intentional... then I'm sorry but they make Heroic Leap a worthless, useless, poorly conceived, designed, coded and implemented talent. That is how your warrior community feels no matter how cool you think it is or how unhelpful you think we are being.

Regards,

-Elanthiar


Once again, any complaints or excuses Blizz gives about needing to examine the coding of heroic leap to make it functional is rendered moot by the very existence of this

Goblin Rocket Pack

The rocket pack is EXACTLY what heroic Leap is supposed to be. It jumps you from point a to point B in a 3d environment and has a splash damage affect upon landing. It adheres to LoS rules and has collision detection.

Again, where is the coding difficulty?
Edited by Mookosh on 2/18/2011 5:54 PM PST
85 Human Priest
5975
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.


Wouldn't it have been intelligent to release their new utility before nerfing them and leaving them broken for an entire patch?
85 Night Elf Warrior
4045
Just one of these would be nice blizzard, JUST ONE.

1. Give us 30%-50% Mortal Strike

2. Make Charge a 10 second CD

3. Give us Intercept back

4. Take out diminishing returns from charge/throwdown

5. Make Heroic Leap 20 second CD

6. Put hamstring on Mortal Strike.

JUST ONE OF THEM
90 Draenei Shaman
14640
Arms mobility WAS overpowered before. 100% uptime on a target WAS NOT necessary.


The only way to get 100% uptime on a target was to build a comp around it. Outside of a comp like that, warrior uptime is fairly balanced. The best example is what happens when a rogue hits a warrior. Unless you have freedom AND someone applying a 60-70% snare on the target, you won't stay on them.
85 Gnome Warrior
BeA
0
Playing the warrior class in Cataclysm has been the most discouraging experience I've ever had with wow.

Reapplying Hamstring every 6 or so seconds and auto-attacking to build enough rage to burst under geared and/or bad players is the only thing slightly amusing with this broken class.

I'm beginning to build the habit of just afk'ing in TB when I go up against frost mages and other snare-happy devils. Sitting in cc's the majority of the time is not only boring but frustrating me to a point where I alt-tab to do something else after my trip to the graveyard....and this is just PvP.

I've had the displeasure of doing Omnitron Defense System last night where every dps were encouraged to use their cooldowns on the first golem. My threat was off the charts and I was pulling aggro, but my dps was still behind the DK, Hunter, and rogue. Holding back was my only option and as the result pushed me further down the dps. Isn't it about time to take a look at our threat issue which been brought up ever so often?

I've taken many breaks during my tenure of playing wow, but this is the first time where I have no desire to renew my subscription.
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