Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

94 Night Elf Hunter
02/18/2011 8:59 PMPosted by Blackclaw
They already addressed your concern. Before it could even BE a concern! The damage boost isn't intended to fix mobility issues. It is a separate issue that just happened to be fixed right now.

The question still needs to be asked about why fixing warriors to no longer make them sitting ducks in PvP is not a higher priority than tweaking damage for PvE purposes.

As Secondwind suggested, it's likely because this was simply an easier fix. Damage itself is a lot less tricky to manage than mobility. Also, again from the very first blue post:

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.

They already DO have plans and are working on it right now. They aren't announcing specific details just yet.
90 Human Warrior
Posting my feedback / posts / topics for a read by a blue.


We don't view avoiding a Charge in this way to be an acceptable use of skill.


Priest gladiator gear 4 set bonus:
When you cast Power Word: Shield on yourself, movement speed reduction effects are temporarily suppressed for 4 sec.


Juggernaut buff should do the same. When a warrior with a snare (crippling poison especially) charges a target (whether it is snared or not) will land so far away that the warrior is lucky to get off 2 GCDs at the most. and if the player is jumping (good players do) im lucky if i ever get close enough to even put up hamstring.

"If your not in melee range, then hit piercing howl, bad warrior!"

warriors snare at 50%. They have no talent points to increase run speed by 15%, so we have to deal with the 8% enchant. even with PH up, all melee will still be running faster than us. also, if i use my gap closer (core warrior ability) it should work. i should not have to blow it then dump more rage because its broken.

Warriors bring no utility. some simple buffs to utility would be to buff intervene.

Intervene could/should reduce damage taken by the target by 30% for 5 seconds; remove snares and/or roots; have its range increased; refresh the cool down on charge; reduce the cool down on heroic leap.


Charge stun should no longer be on the dr. reduce its stun time back to 1.5 or 2 seconds and implement the snare suppression effect as mentioned above.


make piercing howl pull out stealth. Its absurd to say that rogues should be guaranteed the sap, opener, and re-opener after hitting vanish.

flares range is not large enough to prevent sap. concentrate is not large enough to prevent sap. thunder clap is not sensible to pull out stealth.

give us back PH. dont care if it costs rage (it should) but make it pull out stealth.
85 Gnome Warrior
Nice buff. i will enjoy using it while rooted and unable to get within melee range of my target.

At least i can kill pets faster i suppose.....................
85 Blood Elf Warrior
Thank you Daxx. Pay no mind to these other warriors who forget a lot of the details. This is a step in the right direction for helping deal with potential Arms damage. We all look forward to hearing what you gentleman have planned for fixing jump charging, mobility, and heroic leap fixes (or ideas at least).

Thanks again.
85 Human Warrior
I don't believe them at all when they said they are working on mobility. I think they are using it as a smoke screen to buy time and try to let this blow over rather than admit they were wrong.
85 Worgen Warrior
nomepunter with only 2k honorable kills its obvious you dont pvp much on your warrior unless you have another warrior stashed on another server then what you say makes no sense becaue you dont experience what people are talking about
90 Orc Warrior
02/18/2011 9:38 PMPosted by Nomepunter
I personally don't see what the problem is

considering you're not even geared enough to do a heroic, much less do a raid or do an arena, no one is expecting you to see what the problem is
71 Night Elf Priest
Only thing that really frustrates me is now they've made arms warr a "only coordinated pvp class with dedicated healer". Warrs will still do just fine in coordinated pvp but what pugs bg? world pvp? Random pvp that has no planning? Fun PvP? Non-competitive pvp? Playing pvp arms in pug pvp is currently most frustrating thing right now, every match I have to beg a healer to be my personal healer and neglect rest of my teammates or I WILL infinitely be kited to death. How is that fair? Every other class has tools to succeed in both competitive PvP and fun PvP but now arms warr are only useful in competitive pvp and a joke in pugs.
Edited by Eraxxor on 2/18/2011 10:08 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
We could really use more of a response than just a hotlink to the front-page hotfixes.
85 Human Warrior
02/18/2011 8:23 PMPosted by Bashiok

Thanks for the update :)
90 Pandaren Warrior
just to be sure, you're going to be doing more then just a damage buff for arms? because that really solves nothing
90 Orc Warrior
Rangoon, they said that they acknowledge that the damage buff does nothing for PvP viability, and hope to have given us utility in a future patch.

It's just that a lot of us are concerned about how far into the future that is, when they seemed to do things like lowering Raging Blow damage on a whim.
60 Human Warrior
I have a question for the Warrior community. What do you all think about the role/viability of protection in arenas?

For blizzard, is there any consideration being given for these upcoming utility changes to affect Protection Warriors as well as Arms? Perhaps making them slightly more attractive to arena teams?
85 Tauren Shaman
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.

Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.

Going back to the point though, we didn't want to funnel warriors into speccing into Fury, and that was never the intention. While it would be nice if both specs were equally viable for PvP and PvE, we realize that's a tough goal to meet. On the other hand, if Fury is the best spec for both PvP and PvE and Arms is left with nothing, then that's not a great place to be either.

As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in both PvP and PvE, and we might adjust that soon. This isn't a solution to current PvP viability issues, and we understand that. I'm just mentioning it because we're on the subject of Arms and it's worth noting. While we’re on the subject of stuff ‘worth noting’, we also don’t like jumping to avoid Charge, so we're examining some potential solutions for that too.

We're not looking at changing the talent trees at the moment, since we’re very happy with both the Arms and Fury trees as well as the results of some of our core mechanics changes, such as normalizing rage, redesigning Heroic Strike and changing stance penalties.

1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.

Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.

I'd like to say that I do agree with the majority of that post, but I think right now some classes have TOO much mobility. Melee isn't supposed to have 100% uptime just like casters shouldn't be able to free cast, but a good Frost Mage and to a somewhat lesser extent a good Hunter can pretty much kite most melee into oblivion if they really want to. Especially Mages. If you're going to take away mobility, you do need to tone down control by a bit, even if it's to a lesser extent than you reduced melee mobility by.

Mage nova's need to have more of a DR. Not necessarily every single Nova, but at some point a melee should have some reliable uptime on a Mage. A good Frost Mage, if played perfectly, can practically not be touched during a fight.
90 Orc Warrior
02/18/2011 10:38 PMPosted by Bolide
A good Frost Mage, if played perfectly, can practically not be touched during a fight.

An average mage can not be touched during a fight.

An idiot mage could not be touchable during a fight.

As I said, compared to the fact that melee have to stay glued to wherever casters are moving, the fact that mages can single-handedly win fights by jumping around randomly mashing ice lance is incredibly discouraging when you're trying to do arenas.

Here's how it normally goes, as fury spec - as it has a root-breaker and more gap-closers.

Intercept -> Frost Nova
Heroic Fury -> Freeze (pet)

(this is assuming I get the jump with Intercept. If the mage manages to use Freeze on me first, I'm either forced to sit on my ass, or I can blow Heroic Fury and throw away one of my Intercepts.)

Proceed to get Deep Frozen, regardless if I'm rooted or not (since pet freeze gives 2x Fingers of Frost). Trinket out of that.

Intercept again -> Blink

And now we're probably snared to some degree.

Heroic Leap (IF IT WORKS) -> Improved CoC/Shattered Barrier

And at this point, everything's on cooldown and I'm pretty much helpless to ever catch up with the mage again. The mage hasn't had to trinket yet, either.

edit: Or use Cold Snap. Or Ice Block (and proceed to wait out their cooldowns). Do people see the point I'm trying to make?
Edited by Blackclaw on 2/18/2011 10:51 PM PST
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