Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result.


Hi. Rogues and Death Knights can kite us, thanks to their roots and more effective slows.

02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We're not looking at changing the talent trees at the moment, since we’re very happy with both the Arms and Fury trees


Much unlike every warrior who has entered an arena ever.

02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine.


It should be the opposite of Death Grip (in that instead of pulling the enemy to us, we pull ourselves to the enemy). If someone can Death Grip me from A to B, I should be able to Heroic Leap from A to B. Or B to A for that matter. Death Grip works, even with z-axis changes. It works on slopes, stairs, ledges, and elevations, which is exactly what Heroic Leap isn't doing right now.

There are YouTube videos and forum threads in the Warrior Forums filled with examples of how Heroic Leap doesn't work. I would happily invite you or any other staff member to view these to see what's wrong with it. I can provide you with links if you wish.


Now, I don't think Ghostcrawler is part of some magical frost-wizard cabal intent on screwing every warrior ever, but to suggest that you're happy with the way warriors are when we have no mobility and grip, and our level 85 ability is fundamentally broken, I think is a bit silly.
Edited by Blackclaw on 2/17/2011 6:51 PM PST
Community Manager
02/17/2011 6:49 PMPosted by Blackclaw
but to suggest that you're happy with the way warriors are when we have no mobility and grip, and our level 85 ability is fundamentally broken, I think is a bit silly.


We're happy with the talent trees themselves in terms of their current structure and content. That's not the same as saying we're completely happy with the current state of warriors in general. "Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.
Edited by Daxxarri on 2/17/2011 6:55 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 6:53 PMPosted by Daxxarri
That's not the same as saying we're completely happy with the current state of warriors in general. "Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.


Okay, I understand. But if Heroic Leap isn't 'broken', it's getting pretty close to it. There are many places where it can't be used, often between locations that differ in z-axis. You can't leap up many slopes, stairs, up to ledges, or anything of the sort. However, Death Grip, another supposed 'gap closer', can do all of this.

I would invite you to read a post I put on the Warrior forums regarding the state of mobility and grip among melee classes -

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2065606660?page=3#46

It emphasizes that we are the only melee class who has to expend additional time (through GCDs) to keep the target snared, whereas other similar classes can either snare at a range, or their melee snares apply themselves automatically via talents.
90 Orc Warrior
7680
The thing with Heroic Leap is that there are a lot of places in BGs where it just doesn't work.

Twin Peaks is pretty much as it sounds. You can't leap uphill, so you can't leap towards either base, only away.

Battle for Gilneas, there are random objects on the ground that impede your leap (there's some planks of wood near the Waterworks, on the east side, that I can't leap). Same goes for AB.

85 Undead Warlock
3065
02/17/2011 6:45 PMPosted by Islen
[quote]It's not even close to being like that. It works pretty much every time I use it. Yes, it has issues uphill, but it's not that bad.


Maybe your method of leaping differs from mine, but I struggle constantly to find any sort of path in any BG. Most all terrain I ever find myself on is uneven. The terrain that isn't has a fence :(


Of course you cant leap as well with your little dwarf legs.
85 Orc Warrior
6215
why doesn't blizz go back to the old wotlk heroic leap that didn't make it in the game, i know there may have been other problems but from the videos i've seen it seems to work in places where ours just won't
50 Blood Elf Warlock
830
"Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.


You are talking to Warriors, here ;). The verb "occlude" might be a little much. Conan's "lamentation of the women" is about as far you can go ;).
Edited by Tyri on 2/17/2011 6:58 PM PST
85 Goblin Warrior
2570
02/17/2011 6:53 PMPosted by Daxxarri
"Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1869220658?page=1

Yeah, definitely not broken at all.
90 Orc Warrior
9230
I would strongly suggest to other warriors that they avoid hyperbole, all-caps, and foul language. This is the first time we've got a Blizzard response to our situation in quite some time - derailing it with accusations that developers have ulterior motives is a good way to have the thread locked.
85 Troll Rogue
1730
Do "they" actually even have people that play this game? If so it's beyond hard to believe. Test servers are for what again? You work on an expansion for how long and haven't figured out how things should work...........yet? Prime example "Heroic Leap." Suddenly mid season it's decide to implement some crazy class theme program. This has failed because some classes are one man armies. When it takes 4 players to kill one class successfully, something is up. In 5 years nothing has been learned except how to further screw things up.
85 Undead Mage
9910
Even if I carefully plan my route so as to not be going uphill, a stick nobody would even notice can still ruin everything.


I always had the same issue with blink. Huzzah, I'm teleporting away from you... POOF... move 5 inches.


...stupid twig
90 Orc Warrior
9230
Do "they" actually even have people that play this game? If so it's beyond hard to believe. Test servers are for what again?


Settle down. Read what I just said.

I would rather not squander discussion time with Blizzard reps on overly emotional statements like that.
85 Goblin Warrior
5540
If you want to talk about a melee class being on a healer or caster for majority of the time then nerf rogues and death knights. I cant even get remotely away from a rogue on my warlock because they get EVERYTHING to make sure a caster or actually ANYTHING to get away from them. I mean they get a stealth, vanish, blind, sprint, cloak of shadows, evasion, 3 stuns, and to top it off a heal they can proc anytime they want "Recuperate". Start nerfing where it's NEEDED. Actually play the game then make a choice on who to nerf.
85 Orc Warrior
5335
Solution to avoiding charge: have it proc on cc's like you guys had intended on the early patch notes. I wasn't on the PTR, but it would close the gap like you want withotu having to be tricky with charge. However as a consequence, make the diminishing returns every 2 charges, however every 5 seconds instead of every 15, but make the stun for 2 seconds, then one second. 2 seconds is enough for us to at least put up hamstring and get one good hit in. But thinking about it, since you said you want the importance of casters to be put into place, I believe that would actually go against it.

Its nice that you posted acknowledging that there are problems.

One thing I would think would help is buffing damage, so when we do get ahold of our enemy, we are the most effective. Some people say buff mortal strike back to how it was, other people say to add a movement increase, and even some say to make hamstring more powerful.

All these are good things, but one thing people overlook is the lack of CC warriors have in a world (of warcraft) consumed by pvp cc. The other day, my healer was chain CC'd for 15 seconds straight. He asked for a peal, I said, "Uh, I got nothing." I do have nothing, throwdown has diminishing returns, my fear they can easily get out of with dots ticking on them, and charge was on cooldown. Disarm is useless not within melee range, or if they are a caster.

I am okay with how things are now, but really we need some sort of trick up our sleeves. We are out of tricks, since they were all taken away.
85 Worgen Warrior
10715


Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.


This is very true, before this patch I could annihilate anything with little effort, now I actually need to stick with my group for dispells to negate said kiting abilities, even 1v1, against certain classes I can counter their kiting abilities by forcing them to blow gap CDs(tstorm, etc.), so I typically don't have an issue with the juggernaut change

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.


I think the easiest way to fix this is to just increase the duration of Lambs to the slaughter, since it requires almost 15 seconds to fully ramp up, and losing the stacks is so easy due to kiting, so increasing the duration would help us alot

Going back to the point though, we didn't want to funnel warriors into speccing into Fury, and that was never the intention. While it would be nice if both specs were equally viable for PvP and PvE, we realize that's a tough goal to meet. On the other hand, if Fury is the best spec for both PvP and PvE and Arms is left with nothing, then that's not a great place to be either.


Arms is fine in pvp, it's adapt or die.

As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in both PvP and PvE, and we might adjust that soon. This isn't a solution to current PvP viability issues, and we understand that. I'm just mentioning it because we're on the subject of Arms and it's worth noting. While we’re on the subject of stuff ‘worth noting’, we also don’t like jumping to avoid Charge, so we're examining some potential solutions for that too.


This is very reassuring, thank you

We're not looking at changing the talent trees at the moment, since we’re very happy with both the Arms and Fury trees as well as the results of some of our core mechanics changes, such as normalizing rage, redesigning Heroic Strike and changing stance penalties.


Fixing slam and nerfing HS was a great idea, since slam costs significantly less rage, and now that it hits harder, it's great


Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.


That is true, stating that: "dis ablty sux, plz fx" doesn't help you, however, maybe give us an example of what to post? It would definitely help us help you.

And thanks for responding. :D
90 Human Warrior
13280
02/17/2011 6:53 PMPosted by Daxxarri
but to suggest that you're happy with the way warriors are when we have no mobility and grip, and our level 85 ability is fundamentally broken, I think is a bit silly.


We're happy with the talent trees themselves in terms of their current structure and content. That's not the same as saying we're completely happy with the current state of warriors in general. "Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.


I don't understand how you can be happy with the current structure of the bottom two tiers of the trees. Right now Fury has 0 options in sub-speccing, and Arms options are similarly limited if you are going for straight up single target damage, and in PVP Arms is straight jacketed into at least 6 points in Fury for piercing howl, making some otherwise appealing utility options non-options.

Wasn't the initial reasoning for the reduced talent trees to give us choices? A few modifications and shifts and you could give us that choice, but right now it is glaringly nonexistent.

I'm not making any claims of being broken, just that the bottom tiers of the talent trees are currently poorly designed if you intended for us to have any real options.
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