Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

90 Blood Elf Warrior
12965
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.


Good to see that this is a known issue. Part of the issue I've had with warrior PVP has always been the lack of synergy with classes. Warriors typically aren't the ones to bring anything to the table besides damage so most comps are built around supporting the warrior - paladin freedoms, TSG snares/control, enh shaman snare immunity, etc.

I think it's worth noting that having both of our gap closers DR'ing on controlled stuns really hurts synergy with other classes that rely on stuns themselves. Nothing is worse than seeing the deep freeze last less than 2 seconds on my team because I used my gap closer to close in on the target after a root. Fundamental abilities like gap closers, or distance makers should be limited by the CD alone, not also interfere with the utility of the class. Imagine if blink caused nova to DR or death grip caused silences to DR.
90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 7:04 PMPosted by Behamoth
This is very true, before this patch I could annihilate anything with little effort


02/17/2011 7:04 PMPosted by Behamoth
so I typically don't have an issue with the juggernaut change


02/17/2011 7:04 PMPosted by Behamoth
Arms is fine in pvp, it's adapt or die.


02/17/2011 7:04 PMPosted by Behamoth
I think the easiest way to fix this is to just increase the duration of Lambs to the slaughter


I disagree with pretty much all of these statements. Given your achievements and your current teams, I don't have anything to see that you've played in arena long enough to even break 1500. This is not meant as an insult, but are you sure you know what you're talking about?
85 Worgen Warrior
10715
This is very true, before this patch I could annihilate anything with little effort


so I typically don't have an issue with the juggernaut change


Arms is fine in pvp, it's adapt or die.


I think the easiest way to fix this is to just increase the duration of Lambs to the slaughter


I disagree with pretty much all of these statements. Given your achievements and your current teams, I don't have anything to see that you've played in arena long enough to even break 1500. This is not meant as an insult, but are you sure you know what you're talking about?
This is an alt, my guild's rbg team needed a warrior, so I rerolled from my shaman to my warrior, so I'm talking from the the point of rbgs.

and yeah, I will admit I am a bit unknowledgeable to arenas, my shaman was rated 1600 before I switched, hence the low rating, lol.
Edited by Behamoth on 2/17/2011 7:12 PM PST
90 Night Elf Warrior
16710
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers.


If you believe this is true don't you think the opposite holds true for Frost Mages? Even pre-patch when our uptime was high on casters, mages were ridiculous, and it's further ridiculous now with all of the melee nerfs.
5 Gnome Warrior
0
Druid thread with 100 pages...no response. Warriors get a response after, what, 4 pages?

I mean, seriously...WTF.
90 Human Warrior
12950
Druid thread with 100 pages...no response. Warriors get a response after, what, 4 pages?

I mean, seriously...WTF.


Yes, clearly warriors are a favored class *rolls eyes*
90 Night Elf Druid
10630
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.


Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.


This is extremely gratifying to see in blue print.

If you would simply nerf some of the control abilities that Frost Mages have, I think Warriors would be a lot less concerned. I doubt they're having problems with uptime on any of the other casters.
90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 7:11 PMPosted by Loveriel
Situation would make more sense if Frost Mages weren't so bafflingly good.


Without intending to derail this thread on some anti-frostmage tirade, I would be inclined to agree.

If Charge Stun should share diminishing returns with all other stuns, I would like to see more DR implemented towards the roots and freezes of Frost Mages. Here's a brief list of the roots/freezes/stuns that a Frost Mage has available -

Frost Nova
Freeze (pet ability)
Improved Cone of Cold
Shattered Barrier
Ring of Frost
Deep Freeze

In addition to Blink, that's a total of 7 moves that can create a gap for a Frost Mage, yet apparently having 2 gap closers seemed excessive to developers.

I could certainly understand how a lot of warriors are angry like that.
85 Goblin Warrior
4875
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.


1 What about Feral PvP they need mobility as much as Arms does.

2 What about Frost Mages rooting/cc'ing Warriors forever (literally) without them being spam dispelled in a 2v1 situation (this is absolutely no fun win or lose.)
85 Night Elf Priest
7545
02/17/2011 6:40 PMPosted by Islen
It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.


butbutbut...it quite literally almost never works. I'm not even being facetious. Conditions have to be perfect to pull off a heroic leap.


still on my actionbar, but relegated to a ctrl modifier. Frak! wrong toon!
85 Human Warrior
7140
butbutbut...it quite literally almost never works. I'm not even being facetious. Conditions have to be perfect to pull off a heroic leap. Even if I carefully plan my route so as to not be going uphill, a stick nobody would even notice can still ruin everything.

I appreciate it's complicated, but am I to take it this ability is working as intended?


It's not even close to being like that. It works pretty much every time I use it. Yes, it has issues uphill, but it's not that bad.


I agree Sammy and I find its an incredibly fun ability to use, and it has potential to be great. The issue is that it fail in situations wherer the green targetting says a jump is viable where you want it to jump. That is frustrating. All players need to have reasonable trust that their abilities will workand not fail when we need to use them. Having said that, I love the ability.
1 Tauren Druid
0



We're happy with the talent trees themselves in terms of their current structure and content. That's not the same as saying we're completely happy with the current state of warriors in general. "Broken" is also an exaggeration that I prefer to avoid, because it occludes more than it reveals.


I don't understand how you can be happy with the current structure of the bottom two tiers of the trees. Right now Fury has 0 options in sub-speccing, and Arms options are similarly limited if you are going for straight up single target damage, and in PVP Arms is straight jacketed into at least 6 points in Fury for piercing howl, making some otherwise appealing utility options non-options.

Wasn't the initial reasoning for the reduced talent trees to give us choices? A few modifications and shifts and you could give us that choice, but right now it is glaringly nonexistent.

I'm not making any claims of being broken, just that the bottom tiers of the talent trees are currently poorly designed if you intended for us to have any real options.


Fury was somewhat interesting in the deepwounds vs incite debate.

Other than that it's pretty much a cookie cutter spec for fury warriors. There's no leftover talent points when you finished picking up your important talents to spec into an interesting talent.

On another note I'm really happy that they see arms warriors are struggling right now in both aspects of their game and I'm looking forward to what they have in store for them.
Edited by Lolcheese on 2/17/2011 7:21 PM PST

Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.


This is true to a point. Casters have alot of CC over melee....ALOT, even before without the nerf to ARMS. And it was balanced when melee could close the Gap multiple times, it was then casters job to avoid/ stratagize over a Zerging warrior or a stunning rogue.

Haste is a troubling factor aswell. Having a Caster stack haste/passive haste from gear/talents that can significantly lower a skills cast time can make if difficult to pummel/kick at the right time due to server lag. And it creats opportunities for caster to get large amounts of dmg(3-4 major skill casts in 3-5 sec) in a very short time while melee are snared/rooted etc. im not saying its bad or the caster need it taken away but it needs a minor nerf so it only reduces cast time on certain skills maby, or uses more mana...Just a thought

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.


no 100% uptime should not be for any class mage/warrior or anything i agree. and this new skill/utility sounds like it may be promising i just hope it ca do the job :)

Going back to the point though, we didn't want to funnel warriors into speccing into Fury, and that was never the intention. While it would be nice if both specs were equally viable for PvP and PvE, we realize that's a tough goal to meet. On the other hand, if Fury is the best spec for both PvP and PvE and Arms is left with nothing, then that's not a great place to be either.

As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in both PvP and PvE, and we might adjust that soon. This isn't a solution to current PvP viability issues, and we understand that. I'm just mentioning it because we're on the subject of Arms and it's worth noting. While we’re on the subject of stuff ‘worth noting’, we also don’t like jumping to avoid Charge, so we're examining some potential solutions for that too.

We're not looking at changing the talent trees at the moment, since we’re very happy with both the Arms and Fury trees as well as the results of some of our core mechanics changes, such as normalizing rage, redesigning Heroic Strike and changing stance penalties.


Refer to my earlier post bout arms changes. no i dont expect anything changed but it is true that Fury needs more sustained than burst do to the TG and SMF talents

I dont plan on going fury either due to the fact that by the time the next patch is out ur gonna see alot of fury warriors asking not to change it

In my opinion arms dmg is fine i mean i can still get 16-20k crits off in arms. but the lack of crit i think is the prob even stacking 10-11% just feels wrong when other melee can have alot more
85 Blood Elf Priest
12610


1 What about Feral PvP they need mobility as much as Arms does.

2 What about Frost Mages rooting/cc'ing Warriors forever (literally) without them being spam dispelled in a 2v1 situation (this is absolutely no fun win or lose.)


Frost control is a separate issue (and is fairly overpowered in its own right, and is pretty much the exact kind of 'arms race' he alluded to). Wars and ferals still have mobility, really you do, what you aren't is unpeelable, which is good. DK's need some kind of nerf to DA and Desecration vis necrotic strike. If mage control goes down some, and dk's loose their unpeelablity, wars won't seem so lackluster, it's a problem that's just relative to those two classes.
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