Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

85 Human Warrior
4225
Guys calm down, who cares about mages they are supposed to beat mele in a 1v1 situation.. In arena its totally different since we have dispels and i could probably sit on a mage ass with my healer spamming dispel which is high mana cost but just saying.. plus i would love for a new mobility spell so mabey i wont be kited by dks,rogues,feral,and enchance shamans pretty much in 1v1 situation though its pretty bad how a mele kites a mele imo. Plus more mobility = less dispel from my healer = more mana = we can live longer :D
90 Orc Warrior
9230
In addition to that, I would strongly recommend normalising the state of melee snares across the board.

Rogues have a 70% snare automatically applied at melee range (or 50% if they're subtlety).
Death Knights have a ranged 60% snare.
Feral Druids have an automatically applied 50% melee snare.
Warriors have to manually apply a 50% melee snare.

I would suggest to developers that they create the same snare rate across the board, because right now, even when Hamstrung/etc, Rogues can 'kite' warriors about with impunity. I don't think that really makes sense with anyone's idea of 'melee combat'.

There are many who argue that Hamstring is special in that it in 'undispellable', however it is just as undispellable as Chains of Ice - and with how frequently Infected Wounds/Crippling Poison/etc is automatically applied, while they are dispellable, the snares reapply themselves soon after.

As this supposedly 'undispellable' snare is removed with Hand of Freedom, shapeshifting, Master's Call and so on, I for one would be happy making our snares conventionally dispellable, if they were automatically applied through our melee attacks. Normalising Crippling Poison and similar effects to a 50% slow would help amend this issue as well.

tl;dr We won't need so many gap closers if it wasn't so incredibly easy to create a gap.
1.The Usefulness of Heroic Leap.

Heroic Leap involves a lot of movement code, which is among the most challenging things we can do in our engine. We wouldn't have included it if we believed that it was useless, or wasn't usually effective. We think it's a cool ability that does offer greater mobility on the battlefield, even if it isn't as useful specifically for closing with a target as intercept or charge are.

It doesn't help us, or you, to just say that it's useless or almost never works on the forums. Heroic Leap functionality is something we're actively working to improve, so if you find yourself consistently unable to find a path to the jump target, when you submit a report let us know when it didn't work, where you were, and what you were trying to do. The more specific and detailed you are, the more tools you give us to make your tools work better.


i use it alot.....ALOT every chance i get, whether it be jumping ahead of someone in dungeons while running to the next boss or peeling off a mage in arena. It is a usefull skill. but in my opinion 3/4 of pvpers do bgs > arenas. so in actual terms

Yes in arenas most of the surfaces are flat and smooth making it great to use heroic leap, i usually have no problems when i want to use it

but in a battleground there are alot of hills/rocks/corners, that can make HL difficult its almost rare to see warriors leap in a BG

other than that its a fine skill yet some things could change, the dmg is ok, u can get lucky on a 10k crit. i just think it needs a talent to improve either its dmg or give a Thunder Clap ability(maby the blood and thunder talent is a good way to improve this? rend on all targets whith a HL? oooh maby ;)

Any way i responed to this post to share my ideas, not to downplay it
and neither am i a dev(although somday i will be) i hope u guys can work things out between fury and arms that can balence the two out in both pve and pvp making warriors generally happy GL ~Ares

and Yes finally a blue post THANK YOU <3
Edited by Äres on 2/17/2011 7:26 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
9230
warriors sure do get a lot of blue love wow
that's like 10 posts in the past couple days


Okay.

Link them.

02/17/2011 7:22 PMPosted by Rècklèss
Guys calm down, who cares about mages they are supposed to beat mele in a 1v1 situation


In a game with 10 classes and highly-competitive combat, I feel that the 'paper scissors rock' argument is obsolete and outdated. No one should have to give up a fight before it's even started purely because of what the other player's class is.
Community Manager
I don't have any specific replies to make at the moment, but I wanted to drop in to let you know that we're still reading the thread and to thank you guys for the constructive posts.

So, yes, thanks. =)
90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 7:26 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So, yes, thanks. =)


You are more than welcome. While I disagree with some of your opinions, I hope you read some of the opinions, posts and ideas I've put forward, and I hope they can contribute to making Warriors a more useful class to play.
85 Orc Warrior
5335
In addition to that, I would strongly recommend normalising the state of melee snares across the board.

Rogues have a 70% snare automatically applied at melee range (or 50% if they're subtlety).
Death Knights have a ranged 60% snare.
Feral Druids have an automatically applied 50% melee snare.
Warriors have to manually apply a 50% melee snare.

I would suggest to developers that they create the same snare rate across the board, because right now, even when Hamstrung/etc, Rogues can 'kite' warriors about with impunity. I don't think that really makes sense with anyone's idea of 'melee combat'.

There are many who argue that Hamstring is special in that it in 'undispellable', however it is just as undispellable as Chains of Ice - and with how frequently Infected Wounds/Crippling Poison/etc is automatically applied, while they are dispellable, the snares reapply themselves soon after.

As this supposedly 'undispellable' snare is removed with Hand of Freedom, shapeshifting, Master's Call and so on, I for one would be happy making our snares conventionally dispellable, if they were automatically applied through our melee attacks. Normalising Crippling Poison and similar effects to a 50% slow would help amend this issue as well.

tl;dr We won't need so many gap closers if it wasn't so incredibly easy to create a gap.

Too epic to be put to words.
That doesn't solve all the closing the gap situations, but it improves the caster importance, and makes us equal with all the other classes; sorta.

Edit: Thinking about it, maybe an auto apply would be too OP. However, most people macro hamstring into their charge, though, similarly as DKs put chains of ice on death grip.
Edited by Gergor on 2/17/2011 7:30 PM PST
85 Worgen Warrior
2010
Finally a blue response - BUT - would note that the thread was redirected meaning the Blue actually hadn't read it here in warriors forums but elsewhere [damage section of forums]

also note the part regarding healers - think this is where the nerf came from in the first place.

02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers.
90 Night Elf Druid
15370
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.


This seems completely flawed because A) casters have no reason to go back to their cast time spells, and B) there's no longer a choice to be made for Arms or Feral. Arms HAS to close the starting gap with their one shot, and a rooted Feral has nothing at all to press when rooted/feared/stunned.
90 Draenei Shaman
14860
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result


You seem to be implying something that I have found to simply not be true in the arena brackets that I tend to play in (~2200+). Warriors are able to get TO a target quite easily yes, but their ability to STAY on a target was and is the worst out of all the melee classes.

Mobility CAN translate to uptime, but without help, a warrior has low uptime on just about everyone.

In terms of other classes helping the warrior stay on a target, an opposing team could just as easily have classes who can help the warrior's target kite them. At some point (which we are at right now and were at in season 5), it can simply not be a good idea to have a warrior on your team because they need to be babysat to get equal uptime to other melee classes while not really bringing anything else of value to a team.

TBH it feels like this change (the loss of charge) was based off both (an incorrect) perception about realistic warrior uptime and warrior uptime in unrated PvP where nobody really cares if the warrior is going to eat one of your teammates so long as he does not come after you.

The changes to charge (not removing intercept) is also a huge nerf to arena viability. 1.5 second stun with no DR is significantly better than 3.5 seconds with DR. The DR means warriors can't play with mages or rogues at all since charge won't even work properly most of the time.

Long story short, it is quite easy for just about any arena composition to significantly limit a warrior's ability to stay on target. A few comps (TSG specifically) are built 100% around keeping the warrior on a target, so I don't see anything OP about that. Plenty of other comps have the same kind of synergy and nobody thinks twice.
90 Tauren Warrior
8295
Well constructed Blue Post I suppose, thanks for FINALLY responding.

But I must say Blizzard as a Vanilla veteran I'm getting a little bit fed up with half completed jobs. You were more then aware of how this would cripple the Warrior class, we gave many alternatives or suggested buffs to assist the loss of Intercept, (Hamstring revamp..) but you ignored them and went along with the way it was. I looked on the MMO-Champ everyday prior to the patch to see if anything would be given or edited and we got nothing.

You guys ALWAYS do this. You say "hey these guys need a nerf" and you leave us bleeding like a wet dog then turn around saying "o yea we'll fix you in a bit." Its really, really stupid.

Sometimes it's vice versa you see a class needs a buff and you make there combat abilities sky rocket beyond reason, ask any Hunter veteran, they have always been on this roller coaster. I can understand a class being gimp or even OP at expansion launch, but when evaluating and making adjustments I expect a bit more from you...
90 Orc Warrior
9230
02/17/2011 7:27 PMPosted by Gergor
That doesn't solve all the closing the gap situations, but it improves the caster importance, and makes us equal with all the other classes; sorta.


Basically, I want the developers to ask themselves - "What can a warrior bring to an arena fight that a Death Knight cannot?". Right now the only thing Warriors bring to arena fights is damage and an interrupt, so when our ability to damage is hamstrung (WHOOPS PARDON THE PUN), there needs to be some analysis involved.

02/17/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Worgfury
Finally a blue response - BUT - would note that the thread was redirected meaning the Blue actually hadn't read it here in warriors forums but elsewhere [damage section of forums]


More likely, the Blizzard rep moved it to the Damage Dealing forum before replying, as to give it more exposure.
85 Dwarf Warrior
2160
butbutbut...it quite literally almost never works. I'm not even being facetious. Conditions have to be perfect to pull off a heroic leap. Even if I carefully plan my route so as to not be going uphill, a stick nobody would even notice can still ruin everything.


Correction on heroic leap:

In BGs, it quite literally almost never works. Dungeons are basically flat. Arenas are basically flat.
Edited by Islen on 2/17/2011 7:34 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Warrior
0
I fail to see how having only one gap closer makes it a "choice".

We have to charge first to get there. We get rooted, then have to wait. There's no choice in this situation.
90 Night Elf Druid
9400

Wars and ferals still have mobility, really you do, what you aren't is unpeelable, which is good.

Feral's are very peelable, one root is all it takes.
85 Human Paladin
3190
Warriors need a better mechanic to apply hamstring on their target because it's very hard to apply it on a target that's moving and jumping around in addition heroic leap should be fixed so that it can be put to better use maybe make it so it breaks roots since it's in a 1 minute cooldown and yeah don't forget to fix jump charge and warriors should be fine.
86 Gnome Warrior
9740
Since we have your attention here are some notes on the awkwardness of Arms warriors in pvp.

Heroic Strike (HS):
Supposed to be our rage dump but barely hits harder than white attacks yet costs a ton of rage. Might be better to sit on a full rage bar than use this.

Inner Rage (IR):
Seems like it could make HS worth using but for the fact that it can't be used during Deadly Calm and that is the only time it would make sense. HS is simply does too little damage per rage spent to make you want to be able to use it more often.

Deadly Calm:
The best thing about Deadly Calm was it allowed you to keep Heroic Strike on cooldown, but kind of meh now that HS hits like a wet noodle. Begs the question – why it can't be used with Inner Rage? Better yet why not merge this into a single ability. Deadly Calm as a talent that buffs Inner Rage to make all of our abilities cost no rage in addition to reducing the cooldown on HS. At least there would be a reason to use HS.

Hamstring (String):
The worst snare in the game got worse(er). Requires melee range, makes you do no special damage during its GCD, only snares by 50% and can be dodged/parried. The duration has been reduced, so it has to be reapplied more frequently, which means you are doing less damage. The worst snare in the game? Yes.

Slam:
Thought of as our new rage dump to replace HS. Ok great it does more damage, but between all the hamstringing, rending, mortal striking and colossus smashing when exactly does this fit in the skill lineup? Heroic Strike worked as a rage dump because it was off the GCD. We simply have very little room for another ability on the main GCD, especially one with a cast bar. Always seems to fail because your target moves out of range or behind you at the last possible second. With the limited up-time we have on targets now there are next to no opportunities to even use Slam.

Intercept:
Arms Warriors might as well take it off our bars.

Charge:
The DR on the stun hasn't even expired by the time you need to use it again. Once on DR it is easily jumped and ignored by your opponent.

Blitz:
Seems like a bad idea to put more people on DR of your gap closer. Limits your target switching options. A bad choice if any of your mates also use stuns.

Throwdown (TD):
Since our gap closer stun DRs with TD there is exactly no good time to use it on your main target. This is pretty much a focus target only use now.

Heroic Leap (HL):
Not only does it break on broken ground, it can't be used to leap up even the slightest of inclines, rendering it nearly useless on SotA and Twin Peaks. Also causes problems if you use Charge too soon after HLing. You target gets stunned but you don't close the gap between you.

Piercing Howl (PH):
Costs rage again, which isn't such a big deal but makes one question why both snares got nerfed at the same time as mobility.

Tactical Mastery:
Only reason to have this talent was to keep rage during intercept, and now there are only three abilities you would even stance dance to use left, Recklessness, Disarm and Shield Wall. Seems like this talent should be removed and stance dancing finally sent to the grave. Not that we want to see it go, but it is the logical next step.
90 Human Warrior
13415


I don't understand how you can be happy with the current structure of the bottom two tiers of the trees. Right now Fury has 0 options in sub-speccing, and Arms options are similarly limited if you are going for straight up single target damage, and in PVP Arms is straight jacketed into at least 6 points in Fury for piercing howl, making some otherwise appealing utility options non-options.

Wasn't the initial reasoning for the reduced talent trees to give us choices? A few modifications and shifts and you could give us that choice, but right now it is glaringly nonexistent.

I'm not making any claims of being broken, just that the bottom tiers of the talent trees are currently poorly designed if you intended for us to have any real options.


Fury was somewhat interesting in the deepwounds vs incite debate.


No, it really wasn't. That was the exact sort of non-choice that the developers said they were getting rid of with cataclysm. We lost all of the boring passive talents because we didn't want people to have to go to theorycrafters to find out what spec is best. That is exactly what deepwounds vs incite is. Theorycrafters tell you what's better, everyone puts the 1 extra point in whichever one is better.

In this case, pre patch everyone put 3 in incite 2 in Deep Wounds. Now, everyone puts 3 in deep wounds, 2 in incite. It's not an interesting decision. We were told we'd have choices between utility talents, but those choices don't exist because we have an overflow of damage talents in those tiers, and generally utility options that are no brainers. Theres a few exceptions, but not many. They could do a lot better just by reorganizing that.
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