Civil Discussion, Juggernaut nerf.

90 Orc Warrior
02/17/2011 7:30 PMPosted by Nyoh
Everyone harps on that, but then you realize that warriors STILL post patch have better mobility then rogues, and if we did not have a 70% snare rogue numbers would probably instantly drop below 4%

You claim to have less mobility than us, but your snares and movement-enhancing buffs are so potent that you can kite us with ease.

Something is not right with this picture.

I would suggest anyone who disagrees with the notion that Warriors are underpowered right now to check the current winning arena compositions.

Warriors are routinely under-represented in these groups, and have been shown to decline even further in their presence in the top brackets.

Hunters are under-represented as well, however they have undergone fundamental buffs (such as auto-shot while moving), whereas warriors have received a fundamental nerf. To me, this doesn't make sense, and those composition charts show to me that warriors are bringing nowhere near as much to an arena team as, say, a druid or a death knight.
1 Dwarf Paladin
To be specific about areas where Heroic Leap does not work well, I suggest taking a look at Eye of the Storm, Twin Peaks, Battle for Gilneas and Strand of the Ancients.
All of these battlegrounds have tremendous issues with Heroic Leap, all over their maps.
Warsong Gulch is more or less alright with the exception of the tunnels.
85 Worgen Warrior
02/17/2011 6:34 PMPosted by Targett
While we’re on the subject of stuff ‘worth noting’, we also don’t like jumping to avoid Charge, so we're examining some potential solutions for that too.

I am so happy to hear this. I logged off today while doing BG's in a rage because my nerfed mobility that now DR's itself can almost be completely negated by jumping.
90 Orc Warrior
02/17/2011 7:40 PMPosted by Nyoh
Can you please comment on frost mages v melee?

I agree with you for once.

It is near-impossible for me to win a 2v2 or 3v3 game with a mage constantly having me rooted to the ground. Or any other class that can spam immobilizes, for that matter.

Warriors either need more abilities at hand to remove or reduce the effects of these immobilizes or excessive slows (60-70%), or the classes that give those debuffs need to be reviewed as well.
90 Orc Warrior
Daxxarri, do the developers have any statements regarding Fury PvP being easily shut down by low-resource enrage-dispels intended for PvE?
The nerfs on the charge and intercept make me sad NOW IM NOT QQin but i dont like this.. i have to wait 15 sec before i can get back on my target .

say im pvpn a resto druid they just dot and run ... but ya know they entangle anyway so ...

all im going to say is i hate this charge intercept BS >_<
100 Tauren Warrior
02/17/2011 7:41 PMPosted by Nyoh
You claim to have less mobility than us, but your snares and movement-enhancing buffs are so potent that you can kite us with ease.

what are you talking about? our "Movement enhancing buffs" You mean sprint? Vanish to break snares/roots every couple of minutes? Charge more then covers those alone.

If we did not have a 70% snare we might as well be removed from the game.

Only justice i see in a Rogues stare is some of their abilities require them to be infront or behind their opponents.

Warriors are just fed up with having to cast hamstring, our first two globals after that great 3.5 sec charge are Hamstring and Rend normally. It's even worse when you use Hamstring only to see "stronger spell is already on that targt" gg waste of a global.
90 Undead Warrior
[quote]2.Why the Nerf seems so harsh.

Warriors had gotten used to having extremely high mobility. Arms warriors were so mobile that kiting wasn't very effective against them, and their uptime was very high as a result. In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield. We feel this approach introduces more choices in PvP both for the casters and melee in terms of what abilities to use, when to close the gap, when to make space, what to interrupt, etc. Rather than give casters yet more tools to generate breathing space and perpetuate that arms race, it made sense to take a second look at melee mobility instead.

We understand that you need to be on your target to do your jobs, but it didn’t really make sense to allow close to 100% up time either. On the other hand, we understand that without high up-time warriors might not bring as much to an Arena or Rated Battleground team, and we're adding new utility in a future patch to help address that, though we’re not yet ready to share details.

First off, thank you Daxx for the response. Pretty much all I do WOW wise now is pvp. But the patch has made this extremely frustrating. I just left an AB. 3 times i died in there while spamming HL and getting the "no path available" error. It makes me wonder why a mage can blink, a rogue can shadowstep (including vertically), and a mage can port, but we cant jump. AS for our damage, the problem is that it is bases solely around 1 move. When CS is up, we can destroy someone. When it isnt up, we cant compete. I would suggest, as I am sure others have, to reduce CS to 75% but increase our othermoves or base strength to even out our damage over time.

In regards to the mobility nerf, I would ask Blizz if they realize that melee classes are more affected by cc and slows that ranged / caster classes. Ranged classes were given increased damage range with cata. However, so much more cc has been added, that melee classes are having to work harder just to get in range. Warriors are the class most affected as we dont have any significant damage we can do from a distance, like a rogue (poisons), dk (diseases) or pali (hammers and exorcism). This is why the nerf seems so overpowered. Not only were we cc'ed more, but we also had our gap closers nerfed. Its a double whammy.
Edited by Bareilles on 2/17/2011 7:49 PM PST
They dont understand that fury is not going to work without rage ... rage is a #*%@@ to get with fury !
100 Draenei Shaman
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers. Conditions were prompting a move toward more instant cast spells and casting on the move, when we wanted to take PvP back to a place where cast time spells could still have a place on the battlefield.

Going to continue in a second post since the first one got long...

I also feel that the first sentence about melee uptime on healers is wrong. Pallies have freedom+sprint (out of LoS), druids can shift snares outside of desecration and priests can now suppress snares with desecration. The only healer that HAS to tank melee is a shaman since you can't heal for anything in ghost wolf. That said a shaman can kite quite a few melee classes if there is only 1 of them: Warriors, rogues and DK can be easily kited, ferals and rets cannot. With the assistance of snares and line of sight, any healer can kite (quite a while) a warrior, rogue or DK. Rets and ferals are different in that they can remove snares but while being attacked it is extremley hard for both to stay on a target since they will eventually run OOM from removing them (or can't remove them fast enough).

As for casters not using spells with cast times in PvP, you should prolly focus mainly on mages and warlocks. Shadow priests use lots of cast time spells and still do fine.

For mages, ice lance got buffed so much that the damage gained from casting frost bolt over spamming ice lance is generally not worth the reward. One major complaint from mages is that they don't feel rewarded for getting casted spells off. Part of this was because of the push to get frost PvE to be viable and use ice lance, but the risk/reward is off.

For warlocks (affliction), glyph of soul swap means they don't really have to cast much at all. Previously if a lock could keep UA+haunt on one target and UA on a second (with other dots on both), they were rewarded with pretty good damage. Now, they really only have to cast UA once and just swap it to the other target. Once they have their dots up, none of their cast time spells have that much of a reward for getting them off. If UA had its damage increased (and lowered somewhere else) and soul swap glyph got changed (nerfed) somehow, then locks would likely cast more.

In short, its not the overall state of melee uptime that was promoting the shift towards instant cast spells, it was the risk:reward was off from class mechanics. If casting was as rewarding as it was in wrath then I think that would solve the problem.

This is ignoring a bunch of non-viable hybrid caster specs, but they have lots of other problems which are not related that hurt them more than this.
STFU mage = easy game
90 Orc Warrior
02/17/2011 7:48 PMPosted by Datherun
They dont understand that fury is not going to work without rage ... rage is a #*%@@ to get with fury !

Not only this, but Fury does not work without Enrage, a class of buff which is easily removed by instant, low-cost abilities.
85 Orc Warrior
I said this as a joke, but looking at what blackclaw said, maybe it isn't us who's broken, it could be everyone else xD

Our slows are weak, our cc is weaker. Maybe an aspect to go with is making the melee class useful too. I understand about rooting and all that, but maybe reduced times, or bigger diminishing returns. As you can see by that one guy's statistics, casters are way more than important. If slows were gone entirely, maybe our class would be okay in its current state, but that is a rash move.
85 Worgen Warrior
02/17/2011 7:36 PMPosted by Daimoku
Warriors need a better mechanic to apply hamstring on their target because it's very hard to apply it on a target that's moving and jumping around in addition heroic leap should be fixed so that it can be put to better use maybe make it so it breaks roots since it's in a 1 minute cooldown and yeah don't forget to fix jump charge and warriors should be fine.

So true. Warriors are pretty much heavily taxed in the GCD for the face time we do get. Keeping up rend and hamstring is beyong frustrating if the idea is for warriors to be easier to kite.
85 Undead Warrior
As for some general notes, we do think Arms damage is a little low in both PvP and PvE, and we might adjust that soon. This isn't a solution to current PvP viability issues, and we understand that.

are we talking soon as in "hotfix" soon or soon as in "next tier patch" soon?

Im a little disturbed by the use of the word "might"
Edited by Necronom on 2/17/2011 8:01 PM PST
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