Hamstring- The worst melee snare

85 Blood Elf Paladin
2110
hamstring and piercing howl are both laughable

there's been enough talk about why hamstring is a frozen turd (because it's melee range, on GCD, and does no additional damage), but piercing howl sucks due to the same reasons as hamstring. It has low duration, it's on GCD (i.e. doesn't automatically apply), and doesn't come with any additional damage. It's one of a kind in that regard (well, two of a kind, thanks hamstring).

The fact it has a 15yd range is close to negligible. It no longer breaks stealth (or so I've noticed), and there's no way of determining whether your intended target is in range of the ability (i.e. it's not redded out if the other player is, say, 20yds away). And since there's no reason for a ranged class to be less than 15 yards away from me, they'd only be within that range if I was going to close the gap anyway (e.g. they're stunned, rooted by someone else).

It is useful when snaring people while on an Australian ping, however.
Edited by Kathiane on 2/15/2011 12:35 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
4790

2. Chains 60% Undispellable LOLS Desecration.
3. Crip 70% Undispellable
4. Shammy 70% Frost Shock, yes it is dispellable, totem that removes snares.....ie balanced around high mobility not snares
5. Ret see number 4
6. Feral got *##*ed this patch


Ya we are pretty behind the pack, hey you know what else is cool? None of the other melee with snares that are NOT balanced around high up times have to hit a button to apply it or use resource.


I'm pretty sure Frost Shock is only 50%. Also, if you're talking about Tremor Totem, it doesn't remove snares (only Fear, Charm, Sleep). Rogues can use Crippling Poison only in melee, and in order to use Deadly Throw they need combo points. Let me try to give a more comprehensive list of the available snares for melee classes:

Warriors:
    Hamstring: melee; 50% snare; 8 second duration; 7 rage; no cooldown.

    Piercing Howl: 15 yard AoE; 50% snare; 6 second duration; 10 rage; no cooldown.


Rogues:
    Crippling Poison: melee (small radius with FoK); 70% snare; will most likely stay active while in melee.

    Deadly Throw: 30 yard; 50% snare; 6 second duration; requires 35 energy and combo points


Shamans (assuming Enhance):
    Frost Shock: 30 yard; 50% snare; 8 second duration; 6 second cooldown; dispellable

    Earthbind Totem; 10 yard AoE; 50% snare; easily killed; 15 second cooldown


Paladins (assuming Ret):
    No snares


Death Knights (assuming UH):
    Chains of Ice: 20 yard; 60% snare; 8 second duration; requires 1 frost rune (which have a cooldown)

    Desecration: 7 yard AoE; 50% snare; requires minimum of 1 unholy rune (another cooldown)


I may be wrong on some minor details (feel free to correct me).

As we can see, though, each of these melee specs have their pros and cons (regarding snares). Rogues have the strongest snare in the game, but it requires melee range (Deadly Throw is iffy). Frost Shock has a nice long range in addition to dealing strong damage, but it's easily dispelled and it has a cooldown. I don't need to go further to establish this point.

Piercing Howl has a 15 yard AoE, has no cooldown, and is only dispelled by Cleanse (if casted by a Retribution Paladin on himself).

I have no friggin clue how you even came to the idea that Hamstring fits NICELY into our pvp rotation. This is just a plain lie and a gross falsehood.


I'm not talking about Hamstring (which currently doesn't have much of a place in the game's current state, beyond the use of Improved Hamstring). I'm talking about Piercing Howl. It's much easier to use.


I would genuinely like for you to explain to me how losing 20% of my globals on a class that is already balanced around very limited uptime is "good".
If you genuinely believe this is misinformation I am going to need a play by play of what your rotation is like to lend any creedance to what you are saying. It may be possible that I am doing something horribly wrong...but I doubt it.


I will gladly admit to anything that I feel needs some real help with the Warrior class. Example: Heroic Leap is a total joke right now, and Hamstring could use something to make it preferable to Piercing Howl in certain conditions. So that said, I really feel like Piercing Howl is a genuinely good ability.

Between each Mortal Strike, Warriors have time to use two other abilities. For me, one of those abilities is almost always Piercing Howl, and usually the other ability is Overpower, but this varies. If I need to use another ability (e.g., Colossus Smash), I will replace Overpower in that current cycle. This is, of course, only against classes with the potential to kite me. There's not usually much sense in using Piercing Howl against another Warrior in a 1v1 scenario.

P.S How is rage not an issue for you? I am having many a occasion where I am starved and having shouts on the CD whereas Bloodrage never was makes me R A G E.


I couldn't tell you why you're having Rage issues whereas I am not, but it probably has something to do with me using Heroic Strike relatively infrequently.
Edited by Sotiria on 2/15/2011 12:56 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2110
Shamans (assuming Enhance):

Frost Shock: 30 yard; 50% snare; 8 second duration; 6 second cooldown; dispellable


Earthbind Totem; 10 yard AoE; 50% snare; easily killed; 15 second cooldown


http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73682

Can reach 70% when stacked with another effect (frost shock, frostbolt, etc). Non-dispellable.

Paladins (assuming Ret):

No snares


http://www.wowhead.com/spell=87172
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1044



In addition to this, warriors are the only class who need to snare at melee range. Rogues snare automatically, DKs and Shamans can do it at range (as can just about every other caster).

Piercing Howl has a 15 yard AoE, has no cooldown, and is only dispelled by Cleanse (if casted by a Retribution Paladin on itself).


Or Hand of Freedom. Or shapeshifting.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
7960
Hamstring is weak, and it is pretty apparently so. Piercing howl is decent, but with the recent changes to drums of war + no longer breaking rogues out of stealth it is no longer nearly as powerful as it was. In my opinion ph needs to either cost rage and break stealth, or not break stealth and not cost rage via drums of war. Another downside to piercing howl is having to use 2 gcd's to apply imp hamstring if you are relying on ph as your main snare. Make hamstring 60-70% slow and either autoapply on ms / slam, or with a lowered gcd.
Edited by Jeryn on 2/15/2011 1:34 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
4790
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73682
Can reach 70% when stacked with another effect (frost shock, frostbolt, etc). Non-dispellable.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=87172
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1044


Kathiane, thanks for the corrections. I knew I had to be missing something (regarding Unleash Elements - though it should be noted that it has an uptime of only 5 seconds out of every 15). The Paladin things aren't snares, but your mentioning it certainly does contribute to the argument.

In addition to this, warriors are the only class who need to snare at melee range. Rogues snare automatically, DKs and Shamans can do it at range (as can just about every other caster).

15 yards is well beyond melee range. The only spec that can effectively stay out of this 15 yard radius is the Frost Mage, and that's if the Warrior makes the mistake of using Charge while Blink is off cooldown.

Or Hand of Freedom. Or shapeshifting.

This is true, but Piercing Howl is really one of the only snares that can give Druids a hard time thanks to it being ranged, instant cast, and having no cooldown.
Edited by Sotiria on 2/15/2011 2:08 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2110
We just need to take inventory on what other melee classes are getting.

Feral Druids: Auto-applied snares, and the ability to shift out of any snare applied to them.

Rogues: Auto-applied snares, sprint (70% speed increase) (1min cooldown) (which can be specced into to dispel all snares). Cloak of Shadows (removes all hostile effects, 90 sec CD)

Retribution Paladins: No snares, but a 45% speed increase when judging at a decent range (50% uptime). Hand of Freedom (25sec cooldown).

Enhancement Shamans: Frost Shock (Ranged 50% snare, 6 sec CD), Unleash Frost (Ranged 50-70% snare, 15 sec CD), Earthbind Totem. Ghost Wolf (impunity to snares).

DEATH KNIGHTS DEATH KNIGHTS DEATH KNIGHTS: Chains of Ice (ranged 60% snare, 1 rune. Does no initial damage.) Death Grip (closes gap). If specced into Frost, this list gets far bigger (CoI refreshable with Festering Strike, Hungering Cold, Chilblains, etc.) If specced into Unholy, Death's Advance reduces snare effects.

Warrior: Hamstring (Melee 50% snare, no cooldown, does no initial damage.) Piercing Howl (short-range 50% aoe snare, no cooldown, does no initial damage.) Charge/Intercept (gap-closers, mutually exclusive unless if Protection specced. Unusable while rooted.) Heroic Leap (PATHNOTAVAILABLEPATHNOTAVAILABLE) If Arms, snare/roots are removable on a 75 sec cooldown (Bladestorm), if Fury, only roots are removable, on a 30 sec cooldown (Heroic Fury). Using either of these abilities as a root-breaker rather than their intended purpose (AOE damage/refreshing Intercept) may hinder the Warrior afterwards.

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85 Night Elf Warrior
4790
Nice list, Kathiane. Since you seem to be pretty objective and also versed on the topic, what's your opinion on the state of Warrior mobility vs that of the other melees? I may have seemed defensive about Warriors, but only because I feel the disparity isn't half as large as others in this forum claim.

For example, a lot of attention seems to be on all of the mobility given to DKs, but I currently just don't see it. Their gap closer is on a 25 second cooldown, and I don't think it's as easy to keep Unholy Runes on cooldown as non-DKs seem to think (since, as far as I know, those abilities require melee range). Having a 60% snare as opposed to 50% only partially makes up for the fact, and even this advantage is largely negated by the fact that it can't quickly be reapplied after it's shapeshifted out of. Its range is also only 5 yards greater than PH's.

I would kill for a functional Heroic Leap, though...
Edited by Sotiria on 2/15/2011 2:36 AM PST
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6 Orc Warrior
0
I'd honestly be fine with the way they handled hamstring and juggernaught if it wasn't for certain specs being able to negate it so well.

Doing a 3s warrior arena team (we got to 1550 even knowing it was a horrible, but fun, idea.), it was really amplified when we went up against resto druids and the occasional resto shaman, frost mages weren't too bad since we had a prot warrior relagating them with silences and stuns. But there's really no way to lock down a resto druid that knows what he's doing for long. You have to rely on piercing howl too much just to keep him from totally running away, but you can't keep him in range and if you happen to, you get rooted from a passive effect. A smart resto shaman was definetly a pain in the ass sometimes, though much less frustrating.

Doing bgs out on my own though, hunters also become an issue when they refresh cooldowns using whatever the one that does it is called.

I'm quite fine with everything but the mentioned specs, it seemed resto got out from the mobility and control nerfs most classes took.
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100 Undead Warrior
18570
People can say what they want about other class's snares, but the fact is that we rely on our snares more than other melee classes do, especially since our gap closers are broken.

Enhance Shamans - Frost Shock (also has a root at range), frostbrand weapon, earthbind totem, wolf sprint

Feral - Infected wounds, feral charge, skull bash, entangling roots

Ret Paladins - Judgement Sprint, Freedom, hammer, Repentance

Rogues - Crippling Poison, Deadly Throw, Waylay, Vanish, CS/KS, Cloak (to remove a lot of snares, not all), Shadowstep (sub)

DKs - CoI, Desecration, Death Grip, Chillblains


We have...hamstring and piercing howl which are both 50%, require globals to use, and are weaker snares than most of those listed above. Heck, look at DKs as the best example of how bad ours are. Frost DK's can icy touch and apply a ranged physical snare. It's the same as hamstring, but in using icy touch it does damage, applies a dot that increases their other abilities' damage and snares. From range.

And our gap closers? Charge can be jumped, and often lands short of our target. Not to mention certain classes can just ignore it. DK's can just use IBF and ignore it. Even if you're still in range to piercing howl, death's advance will let them just CoI and ignore you while they walk away.

It's gotten to be kind of a joke.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2110
For example, a lot of attention seems to be on all of the mobility given to DKs, but I currently just don't see it. Their gap closer is on a 25 second cooldown, and I don't think it's as easy to keep Unholy Runes on cooldown as non-DKs seem to think (since, as far as I know, those abilities require melee range).


Death and Decay is what a lot of UH Death Knights use to trigger Death's Advance.

Having a 60% snare as opposed to 50% only partially makes up for the fact, and even this advantage is largely negated by the fact that it can't quickly be reapplied after it's shapeshifted out of. Its range is also only 5 yards greater than PH's.


That's the worst case scenario. Un-glyphed, PH has a range of 10 yards. And with Icy Reach (a tier-1 Frost talent), CoI gets a 30 yard range, making as much of a 20 yard difference. When specced Frost, Chilblains snares the target whenever the victim receives Frost Fever (e.g. Icy Touch), and in addition it gives CoI a root, making it now harder for druids to shapeshift out of it.

02/15/2011 2:31 AMPosted by Sotiria
I would kill for a functional Heroic Leap, though...


That implies we could kill something.

Nice list, Kathiane. Since you seem to be pretty objective and also versed on the topic, what's your opinion on the state of Warrior mobility vs that of the other melees?


Wouldn't wipe my ass with it right now. Our one functional gap closer can't be used when rooted, and we have to blow a GCD at melee range (sacrificing valuable DPS time before the target gets away from us again) just to try and get a hold of them. For Fury PvP, our one stun has a deadzone of 8 yards. Our snare/root-breakers are shoehorned into other abilities, shooting us in the foot if we use them prematurely.

When a Rogue can kite us, I'm pretty sure it's time to review Warrior mobility. I'm just sayin'.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
4790
02/15/2011 3:13 AMPosted by Kathiane
Death and Decay is what a lot of UH Death Knights use to trigger Death's Advance.

I remember D&D's cooldown could be reduced by 15 seconds, but isn't it stuck at 30 seconds in Cata? I could see where it would have its place in granting Death's Advance, but it's definitely not something they could spam. It seems reasonable enough, at least.

That's the worst case scenario. Un-glyphed, PH has a range of 10 yards. And with Icy Reach (a tier-1 Frost talent), CoI gets a 30 yard range, making as much of a 20 yard difference. When specced Frost, Chilblains snares the target whenever the victim receives Frost Fever (e.g. Icy Touch), and in addition it gives CoI a root, making it now harder for druids to shapeshift out of it.

Point taken on the range. I suppose most Warriors glyph for PH (in PVP), but it's probably safe to assume every DK takes Icy Reach. A 15 yard difference is definitely significant. But how important is this additional range, really? Considering that anything that's hitting you from a distance is probably snaring you, what good is snaring him back over such a large distance? Doesn't the DK just scoot its way slowly toward a Mage that's scooting in the opposite direction only slightly more slowly? Ultimately the DK will just use Death Grip to close the distance, just like a Warrior will use Charge. The only difference being that the latter is on a shorter cooldown. Playing primarily Warrior, I'm honestly curious about how this fight turns out.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2110
I remember D&D's cooldown could be reduced by 15 seconds, but isn't it stuck at 30 seconds in Cata? I could see where it would have its place in granting Death's Advance, but it's definitely not something they could spam. It seems reasonable enough, at least.


Yeah, it's stuck at 30 seconds. It's not spammable, but considering that you can only have 2 Unholy runes active, being able to blow one of them at range is significant.

With that said, it's not as useful as Death Grip is at closing a gap. They can use their gap-closer they're rooted - we can't do that.

I suppose most Warriors glyph for PH (in PVP), but it's probably safe to assume every DK takes Icy Reach. A 15 yard difference is definitely significant. But how important is this additional range, really?


Giving Death Knights that much control at 30 yards is really useful in arenas. Being able to keep a melee DPS slow at that range (while he helps out his healer or something) is something that other melee classes are unable to do.

Apart from that, it's pretty dependent on what spec you're talking about. Frost offers a lot more control (Hungering Cold, Chilblains) whereas Unholy offers more damage and utility (ghoul, necrotic strike, etc).

Did I mention they have Anti-Magic Shell?

But this is derailing into a "DKs are overpowered" tirade when this should be a "Warriors should be as good as DKs" tirade.
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84 Dwarf Hunter
1845
The snares need normalisation. Right now, even with dispells on us we are easy to kyte because our snare suck and our run speed suck.

Make all snares 50% or 60%, doesn't matter as long as everyone has the same.
Make all melee run at 115% and all ranged run at 100%. Again, the exact speed doesn't matter but it needs to be the same for everyone.
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85 Human Warrior
5255
Many classes have snare reduction, so most of the time hamstring fall off after 4-5 secs. Trolls with snare reduc metagems make hamstring completely useless. Make that a DK/shaman and u have 3 sec hamstring

For arms warrior, it takes 5-6 secs to set up a kill: charge>hamstring>rend>smash then unload. But after the smash comes out hamstring already came off and/or warrior is snared. Other classes can start dpsing right away.

Hamstring needs to be buffed, it's the only "true" snare in the game atm ( does no dmg, no other effect but snare). If it serve only 1 purpose like that it should be full 10 sec.

BTW anyone see how rend and deepwounds break intimidating shout? And it doesn't turn off your autoattack? Rogues can choose to not use a DOT on target before blinding/gouge, but warriors can't help it. DK's freeze , warlock and priest's fear do the same effect but they don't break after 1 sec. Where is the synergy
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85 Night Elf Warrior
6465
My issue with imp hamstring is that it takes 2 GCDs to apply. Doesn't sound like an issue but with someone trying to 5-8 kite you it certainly can be.

I heard an idea in the Damage Dealing forums that I liked. Most mobs that Thunderclap apply a slow with the attack speed reduction that the Player version of this ability has. Would be kind of a cool deep Arms talent to apply Hamstring with Thunderclap, and because it's so common in the NPC world it's not like it's a completely alien change.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
3765
02/12/2011 2:59 AMPosted by Babuchi


In PVP (which is more or less the only time you'd use it) it has an 8 second cooldown. I think before the patch it was 9 seconds (or 10?), but to quote the 4.0.6 patch notes:



Piercing Howl is the go-to snare, but so many warriors are completely ignorant to it. They'll spec and glyph into Piercing Howl to get on the bandwagon, but then they won't use it. It's pretty sad, really, because warriors might actually have some issues, but such a small portion of the complaints are legitimate thanks to a lack of understanding of crucial abilities.

10/10 to the poster above me, though. HEY YOU GUYS!


The issue with piercing howl is the fact it's on GCD and often doesn't slow your target enough to get a hamstring off you can actually start doing some damage on it without worrying about your target scurrying off.

Most commonly what will happen is I'll get off an intercept -> howl as mage kites and spams ice lance -> howl as mage continues to spam ice lance -> howl almost there! mage spams ice lance! -> caught ya! hamstring! -> frost nova! -> u ded warrior lol

Personally I think making ALL shouts off GCD would improve warrior gameplay drastically without being too overpowered. Our snare is already shorter and less immobilizing than every other class. We have to use GCD, 10 rage for a slow that is only slightly better than frost armor, something that automatically slows any attacker...


Considering Feral Druids just have to use a core damaging ability to apply theirs, Rogues have a chance on just striking/use an ability to guarantee its application and is far better than Piercing Howl in terms of mobility, Death Knights having one that starts out hellaciously more powerful than any, which getting close in two second to four seconds is the main point of it, etc., while Piercing Howl/Hamstring either don't last long enough/spamming them to keep an enemy 2 yards away from getting hit by me for about 12 seconds of Ice Lance and instants kiting until Frost Nova comes off CD, etc., ...

Shouts being off the GCD would be a godsend for both PvP and PvE. Wouldn't have to waste time using an ability to generate rage or snare an enemy that'll kite me anyways and spend more time looking towards using a different ability that'll do damage or an ability that may boost me that extra step to actually white swing.

Then I just might forgive Blizzard for taking away my Intercept when Heroic Leap contains more bugs than an ant hill.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
3765
My issue with imp hamstring is that it takes 2 GCDs to apply. Doesn't sound like an issue but with someone trying to 5-8 kite you it certainly can be.

I heard an idea in the Damage Dealing forums that I liked. Most mobs that Thunderclap apply a slow with the attack speed reduction that the Player version of this ability has. Would be kind of a cool deep Arms talent to apply Hamstring with Thunderclap, and because it's so common in the NPC world it's not like it's a completely alien change.


It could work if the slow only worked for, what, two to three seconds? Perhaps the talent could be something along the lines of decreasing attack speed and movement speed by 10-20% and stacks with other movement-impairing abilities.

I know other classes would QQ about us getting something like that, but you know what? Either nerf Frost Mages or buff Warrior mobility again. Until Heroic Leap gets fixed up it doesn't count as a gap-closer unless in extremely lopsided situations, i.e. no obstacles, some arena environments, etc.,
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90 Night Elf Warrior
6560
Piercing Howl is not that great.

The core issue here is we have to spend GCDs slowing our opponent down while every other melee class except Paladins, since paladins are designed around mobility rather then slowing effects, gets a slow for "free" from either auto attacks or abilities that do damage. IMO this is the true issue.

If Hamstring did damage then fine, but it doesn't. IMO this is as clear as day. Piercing Howl is nice, but it is not an alternative as you are still wasting GCDs on something that lasts only 6 seconds instead of the standard 8. It is simply not fun having to spam Hamstring every 6-8 seconds for reapplying AND to top if off Improved Hamstring is the most clunky way of implementing a snare into the game. I really hope Blizzard didn't pat themselves on the back on that one - horrible. Admittedly I use Improved Hamstring a lot for peels... but still ... such a horrible, rotten design.

Really it is just so simple. Go play a DK, Druid, or Rogue and see how their slowing effects work.
Edited by Nohman on 2/15/2011 7:44 AM PST
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