Cat DPS Guide - 4.3

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100 Tauren Druid
14205
Eeeeexcellent.
85 Tauren Druid
5095
So two things before I start off:

1) Thank you very much for putting this up there, I am aware of how much work one of these takes as in previous MMO's I have written guides for classes/bosses.

2) I am not a heavy theorycrafter nor do I crunch numbers heavily. I say what I am about to from experience in the current raid content and the current feral changes.

Now my gear is not the best however it is not to shabby either. While Rawr states I should be doing about 21k in 25m buffs I can attest that I can pull ~19-20k on fights with my current gear and setup.

With that being said, your information despite rawr or the resources you are using, about hit and expertise not being important is completely inaccurate. Both are very good secondary stats as of now, especially with damage being moved to shred from bleeds. I have tested in raids the varying stat reforging/gemming and enchanting of:

1) Heavy haste, reforging all stats to haste with the exception of mastery
2) Purely Crit/mastery/hit
3) Mastery/hit/exp(my current setup) with emphisis on reforging all crit and haste to said stats.
4) pure crit/mastery, In that if it did not have either of these stats I would reforge to mastery first then crit if mastery was already present.

My highest dps output by a long shot has been #3 by far since 4.0.6 followed by #1.

Crit while It does allow better usage of our EPA(energy per action) due to the primal fury talent, the high amount of movement and target switches needed in this tier of Cata makes missing any attacks a larger dps loss then hoping essentially for a crit.

Therefor I believe hit/exp rank above all secondary stats with the exception of mastery.
Edited by Razdruid on 2/16/2011 2:13 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
5095
bump Great guide ! despite my disagreements with some of it.
Edited by Razdruid on 2/16/2011 2:33 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
Bad
7540
02/16/2011 2:07 PMPosted by Razdruid
Therefor I believe hit/exp rank above all secondary stats with the exception of mastery.

What is this based off? Anecdotes? Sims still show hit/exp as being behind every other secondary stat.
85 Night Elf Druid
10970
02/16/2011 2:07 PMPosted by Razdruid
Therefor I believe hit/exp rank above all secondary stats with the exception of mastery.


And I believe the numbers say you are wrong in this aspect.
85 Tauren Druid
5095
We are not computers, we do not hit every button at precisely the right time and from what I am guessing the computer is doing stand still fights like saurfang was where we could stand in one spot behind the boss and purely dps without worry of missing an interrupt or getting out of bad stuff.

Nothing is perfect and the sims are a good judgement as to something to shoot for however they just do not and probably cannot account for the different strats needed to dps successfully on raid bosses, see: Maloriak see: Omnitron defense system: See Atramedes see: Valiona see Ascendant council. If you play with rawr and change the boss fight as to which boss you are doing the dps numbers do not change, therefor how can that be accurate?? It is not. It is not accounting for the fact that on omnitron you must stop dpsing magmatron before his shield goes up or you will nearly wipe or wipe the raid. So you must change targets and re-up your rotation.

I understand that how the simulation programs work however I am just stating raiding is not perfect world stationary dps only situations.
85 Worgen Druid
11305
Razdruid - the sims are based off inhuman capabilities, timing and reaction. That being said, in the simulators, that's where hit and expertise don't matter as much. They're also based off patchwerk type fights. Hit and expertise have the least value or return compared to other stats in this situation, if you can manage your priorities properly. The other stats will yeild a higher dps value (Personally, my dps is at it's highest now with relatively little to no hit (200 rating) 0 expertise, and equal value of crit/haste.

In addition, your examples of moving off magmatron or whatever. Any fight with movement - your hit and expertise value will plummet compared to agi->attackpower->mastery-> crit, since your bleeds will still be hitting, and your hit and expertise have 0 bearing over those abilities.

It "sucks" to miss a shred, but the overall dps loss is very minimal if you notice you have to do it a second later. Hit and expertise just add padding for your reaction time, since you'll have to worry less about missed attacks. Also note these are "relative stat values" based on a specific situation. They're guidelines based off a specific playstyle. Tailor it to your own will however you wish to. The RSV for hit and expertise arent that far behind crit and haste anyway (.1 dps per point difference for me) If you're more comfortable with capped hit, and doing a theoretical 500 less dps, by all means go for it.
Edited by Slott on 2/16/2011 3:13 PM PST
85 Human Priest
2705
Wait....where is my math gnome robot of love going? I DONT WANT YOU TO LEAVE.

But ty for thread. +Sticky!

Moo
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
sucker. :D
85 Night Elf Druid
10790
Tangedyn, thanks for taking over the thread!

A couple of small things I noticed while reading through your posts.

In section 1 (stats) your final sentence on Expertise is cut off mid-thought.

In section 4 (glyphs) you might want to reconsider your comment that Major Glyphs do not directly affect DPS - at least in the case of Glyph of Feral Charge for those fights where we can FC with no travel time. Setting that up in Mew for my toon shows the value of the Glyph of FC to be about 175 dps (Mid-encounter Ravage enabled, Travel Time set to 0).
90 Night Elf Druid
16150

To be honest, I wasn't aware that Feral Cats need many macros besides focus-skull-bash. I you know of more really useful ones, I will consider adding them to a new section the guide.


Not necessarily need no, but there are occassions where I found that macros such as having kitty and bear mangle on one button changing based on form has helped me out.
Example: Conclave when jumping from one platform to the other I can bear form - mangle - taunt - kitty form - run to other side of platform allowing my tank a few seconds to get across the platform while not getting hurt.

I find it's even more of a use for those of us specced double Feral having these macros. Alas tho that kinda goes against the whole "Cat DPS Guide..." and could really be its own thread all together. Which is why I suggested doing it either here or on the blog. I am almost positive I read it there in the past but can't seem to find the post.

This all stems from a personal want of having all bear specific abilities on the bar that changes when I am in bear form and all my kitty specific abilities on the bar when I am in cat form. Then using the secondary bar for things that work in both forms like Mangle, Swipe, Charge, Stamp Roar, FFF, etc. Could just be personal ease idk.
Edited by Jaymzhendo on 2/16/2011 7:48 PM PST
Back to the top of the heap with the new guide; sticky vote reiterated. Druid powah.
90 Tauren Druid
6100
I've noticed in Mew that my crit/haste are valued very closely to each other. Should I be trying to strike up a balance between the two or just reforging everything to the stat that has the slight advantage over the other?
90 Night Elf Druid
9400
To the top! plus stickied.
100 Tauren Druid
19680
Holy druid gods. This thread is pretty damn win. Thank you so much. +1 and Stic@%#@%#@%#y
85 Troll Druid
9275
*bump* for Awesomeness.
90 Night Elf Druid
10955
BE SURE to like the rest of the guide, not just the first post. This highlights all of the guide and makes it slightly easier to navigate to certain posts because you can see where the guide actually ends.
100 Tauren Druid
18060
In before 200 pages.

Also because you requested suggestions Tanj...I give you wall of text. <3

1.) The weapon normalization section is slightly confusing until I read "Top end damage does not matter. Speed does not matter. Look at Weapon DPS. Assuming they are equal, look at the stats."; maybe move it to the top?

1a.) Regarding weapon normalization, perhaps a section regarding PvP weapon usage in PvE? The solid stat loss using a PvP weapon makes it very hard at the moment to calculate whether or not it's worth using a Gladiator weapon(ilvl359+) over a heroic level blue (ilvl346)



2.) Tiger's Fury downtime section doesn't include the relative downtime for calculating the worth of waiting for Tiger's Fury when the target will drop below 25% life for the Blood in the Water effect. Namely just how long does the mob have to be alive to make waiting for Tiger's Fury to come off of CD for a Blood in the Water sustained Rip worthwhile?



3.) Stat Conversions, this is something I'm more curious about and it's ridiculously hard to calculate relative value or scalar values. I do remember your original graphed version of Str:Agi ratio's though which is kinda where I'm going with this. I know this question is fairly complicated so stick with me here; when calculating the relative values of secondary stats are any of them scalar with each other or primary stats? Meaning do any of them become more worthwhile as another stat field increases. An example might be how much haste scales based on character sheet damage (or AP) or crit/mastery scale with each other. Do they bottom out at a certain point or do they increase exponentially. This would probably be sometime that might have to be tied into Mew at some point but when trying to compare two pieces of gear that already have mastery as the main secondary stat and have crit/haste as the minor secondary stat it's hard to play with Mew to figure out if you should be stacking all crit or all haste or both as a characters gear increases.



4.) Druid Mods:

Feral by Night - Very similar to BadKitty but because BadKitty remains in Beta mode it sometimes doesn't function/activate randomly. I haven't quite figured out why.

Event Alert - For those of us who have a hard time seeing when we have Omen of Clarity Proc'd, Predators Swiftness or reach 5 Combo Points.



5.) Druid Macro's, might be a good idea. Most of mine are more form than function but it cleans up the UI a little bit.

5a.) A few examples (alt or ctrl in place of 'mod:shift' will alter activation):
Ravage/Shred Macro:
/cast [mod:shift] Ravage; Shred

Skull Bash (All inclusive):
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift, stance:1] Skull Bash(Bear Form); [mod:shift, stance:3] Skull Bash(Cat Form)
/cast [stance:1] Feral Charge(Bear Form); [stance:3] Feral Charge(Cat Form)

Change Maximum Camera Distance:
/script SetCVar("cameraDistanceMax",60)

Stampeding Roar:
#showtooltip
/cast [stance:1] Stampeding Roar(Bear Form); [stance:3] Stampeding Roar(Cat Form); [stance:0] Stampeding Roar(Cat Form)





PS: Your website is broke'd.
Still works: http://tangedyn.pbworks.com/w/page/19362771/FrontPage
Doesn't work: http://tangedyn.9tribes.net/

PPS: Any possibility of getting DPE values for abilities. Like say glyphed versus unglyphed Ferocious Bite? Or opening with pounce on PvE bosses versus feral charging unstealthed and opening with mangle? The ability map and the guide don't cover openers except to say that pounce stun doesn't work on a lot of mobs (knapkin math places mangle at 232 DPE and Pounce 258 DPE as an opener for my druid).

PPPS: Any chance I might trade druid waffles for an update to "Tossks DPS Gear Methodology" page? They might be a little stale though, they've been sitting in my pocket since innervate became trainable. Rawr just doesn't seem to come up with proper stat values sometimes.
85 Tauren Druid
5435
Tangedyn, thanks for taking over the thread!

A couple of small things I noticed while reading through your posts.

In section 1 (stats) your final sentence on Expertise is cut off mid-thought.

In section 4 (glyphs) you might want to reconsider your comment that Major Glyphs do not directly affect DPS - at least in the case of Glyph of Feral Charge for those fights where we can FC with no travel time. Setting that up in Mew for my toon shows the value of the Glyph of FC to be about 175 dps (Mid-encounter Ravage enabled, Travel Time set to 0).


Updated, thanks!

02/16/2011 11:00 PMPosted by Aiseirighadh
I've noticed in Mew that my crit/haste are valued very closely to each other. Should I be trying to strike up a balance between the two or just reforging everything to the stat that has the slight advantage over the other?


We were testing this earlier, and it looks pretty random. We simulated a toon and slowly reforged crit to haste in steps of 100 rating and we see DPS go up and down randomly at each step. I believe it's not really necessary, or maybe not even possible, to find the best balance between crit and haste, with too many other variables coming into play. You should be fine as long as you are prioritizing Mastery first, then any kind of mix of Crit and Haste, and reforging as much as you can away from Hit and Expertise
85 Worgen Druid
4935
In before 200 pages.

1a.) Regarding weapon normalization, perhaps a section regarding PvP weapon usage in PvE? The solid stat loss using a PvP weapon makes it very hard at the moment to calculate whether or not it's worth using a Gladiator weapon(ilvl359+) over a heroic level blue (ilvl346)



We value wep DPS so much right now that upgrading from a blue to an epic is an incredible DPS increase. Even if it's a STR wep, even if it's a PvP wep. All you're losing is one secondary stat. Y'know, the ones that don't increase our DPS nearly as much.

Like, currently with my gear, here's the stat weighting I get from Mew:

4.5 for wep DPS
.9 for haste
1.01 for mastery
.9 for crit

Upgrading 346 -> 359 increases your DPS by so much that it's worth not getting those secondary stats that aren't nearly as valuable. And you can reforge the crit to mastery to lessen the loss of that single secondary stat.


To Tangedyn - Thanks for taking this up. I came over to check on my favorite thread only to find it missing. And then I found out what happened to Yawning, and I was sad. And now it's back! Huzzah.
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