Mage - Ignite munching some data

90 Human Mage
14010
They really need to come up with some sort of fix, the problem is only getting worse.
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85 Undead Mage
3240

Taken from http://worldoflogs.com/reports/a32gnq7le2jipelh/details/15/?s=10323&e=10492#
Ranked 99th on Argaloth 10m on 2-20-2011

Direct Damage Crits:
Fireball: 796861
Pyroblast!: 190870
Scorch: 28229
Total Direct Damage Crits:
1015960
Expected Ignite from Direct Damage Crits only:
1015960 * .4 = 406384 * (((Mastery - 8) * 2.8) + 22.4)1.33796 = 543725.54

DoT damage crits:
Living Bomb - DoT: 253459
Living Bomb - Explosion: 48747
Combustion - Inital Hit: 12094
Pyroblast!: 76263
Combustion: 192019
Flame Orb*: 47802
Total DoT Damage Crits:
630384

Total Ignite damage: 520218
Total Expected Ignite damage: ((Total Direct Crits + Total DoT Crits) * .4) 658537.6 * (((Mastery - 8) * 2.8) + 22.4) 1.33796 = 881096.97
Damage Lost: (Expected Ignite - Total Ignite) 360868
Percent Munched: (Damage Lost / Total Ignite) 69.36%

Difference in Total Expected Ignite and Expected Ignite form Direct Damage Only:
881096.97 - 543725.54 = 337371.43

Difference in Expected Ignite from Direct Damage Crits and Total Ignite:
543725.54 - 520218 = 23507.54

What this means is that you would gain 23.5k damage from the EXPECTED Ignite from Direct Damage compared to the TOTAL Ignite damage. Ignite will still munch itself if you got a double crit on FB / HS, causing a dps loss overall, although some of this will be regained through easier Combustion usage. The only way that changing Ignite to proccing only from Direct Damage would net a dps gain is if less than 6% of the damage munched itself.

*Added Flame Orb to DoT because it is the least reccomended candidate for Ignite proccing throughout all direct damage abilities.
Edited by Parks on 2/20/2011 12:53 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
02/20/2011 8:20 AMPosted by Sephres
i've never heard of 'deep wounds munching', and it's not baseline either, it requires talent points. but theirs is a steady dot damage based on your weapon's dps, so it's either up or not. there aren't 5 different values being compiled


It probably does happen wth deep wounds, but warriors have much less simultaneity in deep wounds procs.

We get two crits at the same time only if a white swing and a special connect and crit at the same time. Rend crits don't proc it so there aren't any dots running in the background to screw it up.

So I'd imagine it could happen to warriors, but it doesn't happen often enough for anyone to care.
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85 Troll Mage
2985
This problems been around for such a long time how come non of these threads get a single blue post?
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85 Undead Mage
3240
While the idea sounds great on paper, it would lead to even more ignite munching than we have now. A significant portion of damage for Ignite comes from dot ticks. Also, if you double crit from FB and P! FB's crit is completely munched.
Edited by Parks on 2/20/2011 3:34 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
3240
Yes, sorry, quote button isn't working right now.

Point of Clarification: The munching is lead to when your FB / P! / Scorch Ignite is up when a dot ticks.
Edited by Parks on 2/20/2011 3:44 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
3240
Currently you can get higher stacking ignites because the damage adds to itself, the problem is when it adds lower damage replacing higher damage ignites. Only having 1 spell's ignite at a time will be a nerf to dps seeing as we couldn't stack FB and P! crits into a Combustion (basically how we can get over 10, 12, 16k damage ignites through rng)

It'll smooth things out greatly, though.
Edited by Parks on 2/20/2011 4:21 PM PST
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85 Troll Mage
5145
Hm, maybe make Ignite work like Deep Wounds? Make it something like 2x your Spellpower over 4 seconds.

Say your spellpower is 6k, and you crit for 30k, this evens out to about 12k Ignite ticks.

Alternatively, maybe just make it the "big 3": Scorch, Fireball, Pyroblast, and have it boost the damage of the spells NOT affected (Living Bomb, Flame Orb, etc) have crit damage increased to compensate.
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Few things to consider here, last PTR it was clear Fire Mages didnt hit the intended mark in damage delt. Our Fireball spell had its mana cost reduced as a result. Its not a fix to ignite but its an adjustment to the overall picture. One could assume that should ignite be fixed, we may go back to 4.0.1 mana costs, something I personalty would not mind at all.

That being said ignite HAS to either be fixed or redesigned for fire to survive this xpac with any dignity. If it is not changed in some way Crit (a core stat for tree mechanics) will be reforged away, LB fireball and Pyro will have further mana costs reduction and or spell damage increases just to keep up with the rest of the classes.

If a redesign is in order perhaps a change to how ignite works. Change it to a stackable dot with max of X stacks (modified by mastery) with a duration of say Y ticks (increased with haste) over Z seconds. With only fire spell Crits having the ability to proc it.

This way crit still has a place in the tree for HS and master of elements and ignite.

(this may mean a shorter CD on combustion but thats a good thing more buttons to push :D)
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to the OP how did you get skada to show munching?
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85 Troll Mage
6175
If you haven't seen it on EJ already, I posted spreadsheet on Google Docs to help calculate how much damage is lost to Ignite Munching and see the effect of increasing mastery has on the munched damage.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An85yCMpktevdHZSdzhhNWJma1FqeDJjSmNrSGJRS0E&hl=en&authkey=CM2DwdQE

How to use
Enter the totals for your Direct Damage criticals, DoT criticals, and Ignite damage from World of Logs, in cells B1, B2, and B3 respectively. Subtract any crit damage from sources that do not proc Ignite.

Enter your mastery value in cell E1.

Enter your total damage done in cell B8 to see the of percent total damage output lost to ignite.

Notes
The sheet does not account for ignite damage that should have contributed to a Combustion, so actual damage losses are higher.

In the example calculation (using data from my most recent Nefarian kill), I'm losing 19% of my ignite damage or 4% of my total damage. In other encounters I have lost 6% or more of the total damage.
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85 Orc Death Knight
6450
Did a Heroic dungeon and Skada was reporting 40% ignite munching.

Blizzard can we have a response on this please?


Is that including the times where a mob dies before ignite finishes? It's something to be aware of that not all unrealized ignite damage is due to munching.
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85 Orc Death Knight
6450
The only real way to fix ignite munching is to make it a special coding case.
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Community Manager
Since the design of Ignite doesn’t allow us to resolve munching (defined as multiple simultaneous crits that fail to properly proc Ignite) directly, we’re thinking about a solution that would instead prevent Ignite from proc’ing on periodic crits. This might be a minor dps loss, but possibly no dps loss at all since it would stop most cases of munching. If it turned out to be a dps loss, we could compensate for it elsewhere. You're likely to see some experimenting in future patch PTRs. This is a pretty good example of something we can't hotfix, or rather wouldn't try. It’s the kind of change that would likely have unpredictable side-effects.
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90 Orc Warrior
8565
I may be no techno-develop-o-whatchamacalit.

But it seems to me you would be able to change ignite into a stacking buff that stacks ontop of itself with charges, with the charges fluxuating based on how much ignite damage is left ticking at any specific moment.
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