Topic
Sub PvE Guide (4.3)
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Edited by Haileaus on 3/25/12 8:42 AM (PDT)
I have a new and improved guide which you can find here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4139869493
I will still keep track of this one so feel free to comment here. Please note that much of this information is taken from elitistjerks.com which uses ideal scenarios in their models. The info they provide is generally accurate, however it does not account for human error, which is where I come in. My personal takes on various matters is given. Categories marked with * are on the third post. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2089279145?page=1#3 Categories marked with ** are on the fourth post. ETC Special thanks to Kyrrion for all his contributions. Contents: 1. Overview 2. Terms 3. Talents/glyphs 4. Stat Priority 5. Reforging/Gems/Enchants/Poisons 6. Rotation* 7. Credits* 8. Best in Slot** 9. Opening** 10. Patch changes** 11. More Advanced Stuff (in progress)*** 12. More More Advanced Stuff (in progress)**** Overview: Subtlety is currently one of the more difficult specs in the game, especially at low gear levels. While it does have the highest theoretical dps of any other rogue spec, it requires a nearly full uptime on the boss. Shadowstep does allow sub to have greater uptime than other melee, and HaT allows for CP generation while switching targets or running away from a boss. Critical to the spec is its rotation and many CDs which make it difficult to master though very rewarding. This guide is designed to tell you everything you need to know about playing subtlety so you can beat the hunter who just called you a baddie. A Few Terms: SS = Shadowstep BS = Backstab ShD = Shadow Dance SnD = Slice and Dice EA = Expose Armor HaT = Honor Among Thieves MoS = Master of Subtlety FW = Find Weakness Talents: The best build for pure dps is: Glyphs:
Stats Here are the Elitist Jerks EP values, meaning how many points of Attack Power = 1 ___ T11 means Best-in-Slot gear from t11, t12 means BiS t12. This includes set bonuses, which in the case of T12 changed the EP a fair amount (see below).
These are approximations, and will change depending on current stat layout. These are also assuming a perfect fight, so the stats that will give you the best dps will likely be more rotation-oriented. Tier 13 best-in slot actually uses the T12 2-piece bonus, though Crit still looses its value relative to Expertise at higher gear levels. Specifically, Expertise can be valued slightly above crit, since a dodged BS/evis can be detrimental to the rotation (though haste is still better than exp). Expertise also gains significant value if you need to face the boss (using hemo), which makes the spec slightly more linear from fight-to-fight. The t12 2 and especially 4 piece bonuses generally will push crit over exp in practice (which shows in the EP values for T12, which assume a 4-set) Reforging/Gems/Enchants/Poisons Reforging: In general, use the stat priority to reforge, keeping in mind your caps. If you are under the yellow hit cap, do whatever you can to reach it as closely as possible. Otherwise, anything without haste should have the weakest stat reforged to haste. For items with haste, generally reforge the second stat to expertise/crit. Crit is theoretically slightly better, to the point that it is worse with the 4-piece t11 bonus, so I generally reforge to expertise until cap (don’t worry if you cannot reach it, haste is still better). Gems/Enchants: Agility all the way. If there is a 20 agility bonus that can be attained by using a haste/agi gem, do that. For the meta, use Agile Shadowspirit Diamond. For enchants, use EP values, although the 25 agi+speed is generally better than +35 agi. For weps, use Landslide. Poisons For poisons, use instant/deadly/wound, but for fights where DP will fall off often, go double wound. |
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Edited by Haileaus on 3/6/12 9:05 AM (PST)
Rotation:
This is the hardest part of playing subtlety, and will make or break you depending on the fight and your skill. This assumes you are attacking a boss or otherwise high-HP mob. Addons that track buff/debuff durations are extremely helpful (I personally use sexycooldown)
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Edited by Kyrrion on 12/9/11 9:27 PM (PST)
Best Way to Open
This is only at the very beginning of any fight. Open like normal (Shadowstep > Premeditation > Ambush) and go with the standard rotation until Shadowstep comes off CD. When it does come off CD, Vanish into Premed + Ambush but do NOT use Shadowstep with the Ambush! Use it after the Ambush hits and use Preparation after you hit Shadowstep. You now have the 10 second buff to your next Ambush, Shadowstep off cooldown, and Find Weakness on your target. Right before Find Weakness falls off, hit Shadowdance and proceed as normal (saving the Shadowstep for the 2nd Ambush). This way an extra Shadowstepped Ambush under Find Weakness. To simplify: Vanish > Premed + Ambush > Wait until Find Weakness is close to expiring > Shadowstep > Preparation > Standard Shadowdance (where you still Shadowstep the 2nd Ambush). |
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Edited by Haileaus on 1/26/12 10:33 AM (PST)
More Advanced Stuff (in progress):
This is an amalgamation of various little things that are all useful, though not necessary to play sub at 99% effectiveness. Basically, these should help you squeeze the last bit of DPS out of your rogue. This also includes dealing with set bonuses. Rotational intricacies: Refresh Rupture as late as possible: As long as you are not about to energy cap, using Eviscerate to refresh Rupture just before HaT will give you an extra CP means you will potentially let another tick occur before the refresh. This not only gives you the damage gained from that tick, but also means Rupture will have a longer total duration after the refresh, giving you more time to manage the other finishers. You may also note that rupture ticks every 2 secs (same as HaT), so after the first Rupture tick after you get 5 CP (IF the 5th is from HaT) you should refresh. If you get 5 CP using an ability, then that should be because you had too much energy, and as such you should refresh ASAP because you don't want to cap, the damage gained is minimal, and you don't want to get an HaT proc before you refresh. Get 2 CP before you use ShD (conditions!): This assumes you have a minimal duration HaT (no glyph or set bonus). Also, you must have Prem ready during the ShD. If this is the case, your ShD should look like: Waiting to Hemo: I have not done the math, however if you are using a soft hemo build then it may be worth it to not refresh hemo as soon as possible if a CD that gives FW is ready, since the damage gained from FW (and potentially MoS) will increase the damage done by more than the few ticks lost by waiting. This also applies to refreshing the debuff early if FW is about to fade. Again though, I have NOT done any math on this. It is on my to-do-but-may-never-if-I-get-lots-of-work list. Set Bonuses, Raid Mechanics, and other Obscurities T13 2pc usage This reduces the energy cost of your abilities by a set percentage when you use Tricks of the Trade. The best use for this is probably right before you use ShD, and then once it comes off CD. By using it before ShD you will have a much greater chance of getting in the maximum amount of abilities during the buff. It may be best to use Vanish on the 30 sec mark (right after you Tricks), because you will get more abilities in FW, and it also ensures that SS (and Prem) are up. |
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Edited by Haileaus on 3/6/12 9:07 AM (PST)
Set Bonuses, Raid Mechanics, and other Obscurities (Cont.)
T13 4pc or t12 2pc? The below paragraph paraphrased from the theorycrafters at Elitistjerks, using the spreadsheet (which you should all know about and use, even though it isn't great at modeling sub, it is by far the best thing we have) Shadowcraft (http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com) Find Weakness Damage Bonus: Full Armor: 28.26% increase Credits General credit to Elitistjerks.com, (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/) Also thanks to the readers, especially Kyrrion. Without you all this would be a far worse guide. |
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Edited by Haileaus on 12/18/11 9:40 AM (PST)
EDIT: This response is out of date, as is anything under it. Not really. The reason for playing it is mostly because you like it, and have the gear to pull decend dps and sustain the rotation compared to those you play with. That said, in certain fights it will excel, for instance, Halfus in BoT, assuming your on kicking duty. The 100% uptime behind the boss should mean you will do more dps than any other rogue spec. (I have read this on EJ from Adriana and have had higher dps peaks on heroic bosses than I had as mut, though that could be partially due to better CDs as sub). Magmaw (first boss of BWD if I got the wrong name) would also be a good fight for a rogue assuming the tank is positioning the boss in a way that you can be behind the boss (each of you near edge). Just don't use shadowstep... EDIT: Sub also is useful in encounters with high raid damage, due to recup being part of the rotation, and Enveloping Shadows (if you pick it up). In general though, it would be more of an offspec as far as pure optimality in a raid environment goes. |
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That 4 finisher amount was being fairly generous (On average you will be seeing a 5 point finisher every 6 seconds, possibly 5 seconds with a good amount of haste and 4 if heroism is up). You'd need 160% haste (this is counting the base of 10 + 4 energy regen from recuperate) in order to consistently shoot a 5point finisher every 4 seconds (2 points from HaT, and 3 backstabs from the 120 energy regained). It also takes a lot of haste to actually get one more finisher as 1% haste is .1 energy per second, taking 400 seconds to get one backstab. And the more haste you get, you can also squeeze in more Ambushes within Shadowdance, making the glyph even more valuable than Eviscerate's. |
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Yeah I'm not exactly sure where EJ got that data. It is probably due to insufficient time spent on optimizing sub pve.
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Yeah, I don't even think they care that much. So I guess I'm still gonna do the work myself and see what happens lol |
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Yeah, I don't even think they care that much. So I guess I'm still gonna do the work myself and see what happens lol That's part of the reason I wrote this. The other part was boredom lol. Anyway if you come up with any data that is contrary to what I wrote here, or would add to the guide, posting it would be a big help. |
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Just realized that a longer ShD means more time on FW, which would translate to a dps increase. Also using ambush instead of Backstab is only a minor damage increase with the patch so the damage you are getting from ambush is likely considerably less than those of eviscerate. Still, ShD seems like it would be superior.
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85 Human Rogue
4670
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This guide is freaking awesome. Thanks so much!! Implement these changes and your DPS will skyrocket, take my word.
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Thought the whole point of using ambush in ShD was for the increased rate of combo point generation. You'd go Ambush, Ambush-> finisher instead of BSx4 + HAT-> finisher. It's even in the copied stuff from EJ you got.
But yeah, awesome work dude. Gives me hope for 85. |
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Another note- Backstab criticals may hit harder than Ambush, but until you start getting around 30% crit (haven't done exact measurements), the 60% crit bonus to Ambush provides a higher average (key word) dps than Backstab.
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