These "Hotfixes" are a no, no.

100 Blood Elf Warlock
20095
02/18/2011 8:57 PMPosted by Tastie
Well, the hotfixes did do a pretty good job of keeping my disc priest from (apparently inadvertently) becoming fun to play, and from keeping my spriest from (apparently inadvertently) topping hunter and lock faceroll dps for more than 48 hours, so it looks like the designers have it all under control now.


What game are you playing?

Warlocks are at this point are the most complex class in the game because of changes that came with 4.0.1 and on top of that Warlocks and hunters are Pure classes and shadow Priests are not, Pure classes are supposed to be higher DPS then hybrids and as of right now most Pure classes are being out DPSed by Hybrids and that is just stupid.
Edited by Alinara on 2/19/2011 2:39 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
5625
02/18/2011 9:07 PMPosted by Rauxxann
While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes. Forum posts always make a lot of noise. It's difficult to separate the seed from the chaff. Yes, it turned out a number of reports proved to be accurate once the 4.0.6's hit the masses and we were able to get a sample size that showed us what needed adjusting.



So what's the point of having a public test realm if you don't listen to the public testers, or the info they provide?
Edited by Prozbeast on 2/19/2011 2:42 PM PST
85 Human Death Knight
10860
The only issue I have with hotfixes is it tends to be knee-jerk reactions. Coupled with blizzards tendencies to overbuff or overnerf and it just creates a proverbial poopstorm.
85 Tauren Druid
9290
I'd like to vent a little of the frustration of things being done this way.

Not everyone "studies" WoW, and they come to guild leadership to explain why things are changing. When tooltips say one thing, but the spell does another, they are baffled if they don't do offline reading. This leads to certain people -- usually ones with low playtime, but plenty of time to read the websites and learn current events -- being inundated with questions and expected to explain what all happened.

Please, at the very least put a notice on the login screen as you do with maintenance notices to at least let people know that another round of hotfixes are happening and to check the community site. Doesn't have to be super detailed, just that more hotfixes went live. There needs to be some in-gem notification system, even if extremely basic.


Agree. That was something we specifically discussed and probably should have included in my post. Expecting people to alt-tab to read a potentially updated blog isn't right. We don't have any great solutions for that yet, but it of course makes hotfixes infinitely more confusing and even potentially damaging to the play experience without some kind of in game communication. We haven't figured out what that might be yet. It's something we're concerned with too. Although we expect hotfixes to slow down substantially at this point, we need a solution for the future.


what would be nice is using a tool similar to the newbie tooltips when gaining new spells, that you see around levels 1-20 if i recall properly. I'm not sure how hard it would be to have it update soon as a hotfix is applied, but it is a rather nice set up and easy to notice a pop up like that, that would tell you ability A has been hotfixed.
85 Human Paladin
9400
I'm going to be respectful enough not to name the specific competitor here, but you know who I'm talking about.


Did I miss something? Are they coming out with a Justin Beiber MMO?
85 Tauren Druid
9290
02/19/2011 2:43 PMPosted by Rykis
I'm going to be respectful enough not to name the specific competitor here, but you know who I'm talking about.


Did I miss something? Are they coming out with a Justin Beiber MMO?


nah I think he's talking about some other mmo that's supposedly the new hot thing, that will die off like every other attempt, especially this one that tried to diss azeroth, fail advertising from a fail company imo, since they pretty much said they can't even compare to azeroth :D
85 Undead Warlock
10240
While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes. Forum posts always make a lot of noise. It's difficult to separate the seed from the chaff. Yes, it turned out a number of reports proved to be accurate once the 4.0.6's hit the masses and we were able to get a sample size that showed us what needed adjusting.



So what's the point of having a public test realm if you don't listen to the public testers, or the info they provide?


An excellent question, and one I posed as well (though I doubt we will get a response). The blue posts have been called out far too much on this for me to imagine they'd revisit this thread again. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been locked yet.

They just won't accept the responsibility themselves, and they don't seem to understand it's just angering people more and causing them to lose more customers. They had plenty more than all the feedback they needed from us, yet they ignored us. There was no good reason for what happened and the more they try to spit out their excuses, the worse it's making the situation.
Edited by Asçendant on 2/19/2011 3:28 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
9290
02/19/2011 3:26 PMPosted by Asçendant



So what's the point of having a public test realm if you don't listen to the public testers, or the info they provide?


An excellent question, and one I guarantee they will not respond to. Like all other blue posts, when they get called out, they hide or point fingers at us. They just won't accept the responsibility themselves, and they don't seem to understand it's just angering people more and causing them to lose more customers.


they already responded to that question

I know a lot of us remember the old days where classes would sit without changes for months, in some cases years for specific mechanics.


Shaman totems... years indeed...
85 Undead Warlock
10240


they already responded to that question


Not with a legitimate answer, no. Read through previous posts on here and you'll clearly see why.
85 Night Elf Rogue
0
Not everyone "studies" WoW, and they come to guild leadership to explain why things are changing. When tooltips say one thing, but the spell does another, they are baffled if they don't do offline reading. This leads to certain people -- usually ones with low playtime, but plenty of time to read the websites and learn current events -- being inundated with questions and expected to explain what all happened.


If you don't want to keep up with changes, play a different game. It takes 5 minutes to read patch notes or hotfixes, and there is A !*#%ING LINK on the launcher when YOU start the game. This response to me is complete trolling. It's acting like a 5 year old who can't work his computer apparently.

Your guild leader is not responsible. You are.

I don't understand the upset over hotfixes. It's an MMO; anything to fix things faster is a good thing to me. I really feel like it's just people complaining to complain. Blizzard isn't just a bunch of monkeys in front of computers. They are breathing people, and they are obviously trying.

Hunter complaining about a couple buffs not going through makes my mind blown. They made a patch, and missed a couple changes. You guys got HUGE positive changes to your class. The things they missed are minute at best and your class is completely playable still. The things they missed might not be "hotfixable." Give it some damn time.

I'm no Blizzard fan boy. But I've never played an MMO in the past 10+ years that has had more people complain about ridiculous things. Companies make mistakes; thank your stars Blizzard isn't like SOE or other MMO companies. There is a reason this game is so popular besides luck and franchising.

They listen to their players, for better or worse. They post on the forums, not every one but more than most. Read the patch notes, read the hotfixes (it takes 30 seconds... seriously; that's your fault and no one elses) and be patient. Please; really think about what your doing and saying. I have complaints; I hate that my stealth is almost meaningless, and that my shammy has a hard time finding gear. But there are bigger problems, more going on and other players to think about.

Really stop and think about things. Think about something other than how YOU want things to be.
85 Night Elf Hunter
4775
02/19/2011 3:44 PMPosted by Speetz
If you don't want to keep up with changes, play a different game.


The point is, if you'd be a little less antagonizing, that people shouldn't have to read mmo-champion every day before they log in just to know whats going on with their class.

Why should they? I'd say it's the responsibility of the company and developers to make sure their game isn't confusing in the slightest. Sure, it's our responsibility to L2P, but having to do homework for a video game is asinine.
90 Human Priest
12260
So this latest wave of buf/nerf/buff/nerf is a great of real life example of letting developers have too much freedom.

Since they implemented the Hotfix ability we've seen nothing but trouble. I QQ a lot about the stupidity of this game and how unbalanced it is but bottom line is the management at Blizz seems to lack the skills for product control.

So please stop blaming the devs for what they're doing., It is their nature and inherent inability to get excited about implementing their latest code RIGHT NOW.
Turn your anger towards the people that manage those teams and show their blatant incompetencies by allowing this stuff through.
80 Night Elf Druid
2070
While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes. Forum posts always make a lot of noise. It's difficult to separate the seed from the chaff. Yes, it turned out a number of reports proved to be accurate once the 4.0.6's hit the masses and we were able to get a sample size that showed us what needed adjusting.



So what's the point of having a public test realm if you don't listen to the public testers, or the info they provide?


I read some of the blue posts and I realize that a recent decision I made was a good one. Even if I don't play MMO's at all in the near future.

I just keep losing faith in blizzard and I used to LOVE to play this game.
Edited by Aloeverra on 2/19/2011 4:06 PM PST
85 Night Elf Warrior
5955
WTB patch 4.0.7 that has balance changes the devs wanted to hotfix into the game, along with appropriate updates to tooltips, talents, and other features. I would willingly sit through another few megs worth of patching that had been tested on the PTRs for balance issues once a month. This every day but Sat/Sun a new "fix" thing is just irritating.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475

What game are you playing?
Pure classes are supposed to be higher DPS then hybrids and as of right now most Pure classes are being out DPSed by Hybrids and that is just stupid.


As of right now, the top two specs are Shadow Priest and Balance Druid which are clearly both OP. Blizzard has said SP nerfs are on the way.

However, after that the next top 7 DPS specs are all pure DPS classes. The next six are hybrids. And then bringing up the rear are PVP specs and the two broken PvE specs (combat rogue and arcane mage). (source - stateofdps.com)

So the cards are mostly in order, we just need SPriest and moonkin to come down, and combat rogue and arcane mage to go up (significantly).
Edited by Lusignan on 2/19/2011 4:10 PM PST
85 Dwarf Paladin
2820
We don't have any great solutions for that yet, but it of course makes hotfixes infinitely more confusing and even potentially damaging to the play experience without some kind of in game communication. We haven't figured out what that might be yet.


Now, I know from experience that everyone on these forums thinks that their suggestions would be "so simple" to implement, but here's mine anyways. The MotD at at login often goes by too quickly to be useful, but we DO have an in-game mail system. We use it all the time, no? Wouldn't it make sense to mail a notice to accounts when you make changes? I don't mean necessarily a complete set of patch notes, rather a "hey, we changed stuff, look it up" sort of thing. It wouldn't make for a very palatable long-term solution, but in the short term it would be better than the barrage of stealth-nerfs that are really beginning to aggravate your players.
Blizzard Employee
While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes. Forum posts always make a lot of noise. It's difficult to separate the seed from the chaff. Yes, it turned out a number of reports proved to be accurate once the 4.0.6's hit the masses and we were able to get a sample size that showed us what needed adjusting.


So what's the point of having a public test realm if you don't listen to the public testers, or the info they provide?


The PTR does not exist solely for balance feedback. They provide crash reports, bug reports, having the patches simply live on a test environment with people actively playing helps us catch a great number of issues that no one would even need post about. Beyond that though the bug reports that are posted are extremely helpful, and overall the PTRs lead without a doubt to a more stable patch than it would have been were there no public test.

In direct answer to what you're referring, unless there's new content, the number of people on the PTR is really pretty low. Too low to pull reliable metrics to base balance changes on. Unless there's new content to drive people to the PTR there generally just isn't a sample size. Which is fine, because we can make changes after the PTR once the patch hits the live realms. Issuing hotfixes after a patch is by no means something new. We've used hotfixes for quite a long time, but since Cataclysm and the new community site, hotfix changes are front page news through the blogs. Which is awesome. Before we were throwing out pretty much the same amount of hotfixes we were after 4.0.6. Difference being we didn't have a great way to tell anyone about them. So now hotfixes are very visible and it makes it seem like we're going crazy with them, when really it's just increased transparency into the changes we're making.

Going back to your question, the PTR does many great things for the patches, and it should be expected that we're not going to make balance changes based on forum posts alone. The designers don't believe their own play experience is reason enough to make balance changes, although it can be one part of the puzzle, and the same goes for us reading about yours.
Edited by Bashiok on 2/19/2011 4:25 PM PST
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