Feb 18th Hunter Hot"fixes"

85 Troll Hunter
9510
Just because their burst is higher, doesn't mean ours is too high. I shouldn't be taking away 80K health with my opening salvo in this type of gear. And heaven forbid the target be properly debuffed, because its very easy for a MM Hunter to drop 100k damage on a target before someone even knows they are there.

@Daxx: Is Aimed from Stealth a bug? Right now we can wind up Aimed while Camo'd without it breaking until the shot is fired. Intended, or not?

EDIT: I only ask because of the angst this caused players when faced with Nelf Hunters back in Vanilla.
Edited by Zerlu on 2/22/2011 8:23 PM PST
85 Orc Hunter
7270
I agree, actually. I made a mistake, for which I apologize.


Daxxarri, you have NO IDEA how much more this makes me respect you over the other CMs. Whereas the other ones just ignore us whenever we point out that they're wrong, and never even show that they're reading our feedback, you have the cajones to apologize when you make a minor error about hunter aspect GCDs. I like you.
As a hunter, I accept your apology, and it's just made a world of difference in how I view you guys. Thank you.
Edited by Prifdinnas on 2/22/2011 8:27 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Hunter
7430
seeing as i doubt the blue will look at the post i linked ive decided to move it here (incoming 1/4 a forum page)
this post is here to request the return for hunter traps (freezing trap to be more specific) to effect multiple mobs (aka have multiple mobs frozen at a time)

Drawbacks of hunter traps in comparison to other CCs
-requires pathing to trap (not targeted)
-has a decent CD
-puts a separate ability on CD
-broken on any damage
-can be resisted even if hit/spell pen capped
-has an arming time
-has a very small activation radius
-cannot be macro-ed (because it isn't targeted)
-moderate difficulty to use effectively
-cannot remove dots

this list is not saying that all other CCs do not have at least 1 or 2 of these drawbacks, as sheep is broken on damage and hex has a CD (just some examples)

the 'perk' of hunter traps over other CC
-can effect multiple mobs(this is now gone and i am making this thread to argue for it to be returned)

freezing trap is a unique CC, sap is also a unique CC which has its benefits (can apply outside of combat without starting combat)

recently the one benefit to hunter CC was removed, and yet sap still does not put the mob into combat (just an example)

trapping took skill to do (expesially when you could not lay a trap in combat [back in early vanilla] XD ) but was made easyer with cataclysms new abilities

-trap launcher
-scatter shot (becoming a base line ability)
-camo (when you had to get a little closer)

these abilities did not bring trapping in line with the simplicity of other classes CCs, which can all be macrod to the focus target for quick easy use, while trapping still requires pathing to accomplish (target must run over the hunters trap)

thgese new abilities just took down the skill level requirement to trap 1 mob, while multi trapping still requires foresight on mob pathing (how they move when put into combat), undertsanding on how to make the mob run over a trap if an unforseen event occures ( group gets pulled from weird position [making them run around trap]), abiltiy to quickly CC a second/third mob in combat (3 was the intended hard target cap due to trap durationV.S.trap CD)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
multi trapping has been in game for over 5 years, but this isnt the 1st time they tried to remove it, this was attemted to be removed before by blizzard back in BC, and was reverted after the hunter community conviced them that because of all the additional drawbacks of hunter traps(listed above), it deserved the benefit of being able to effect multiple targets (which btw is not easy to do effectively: quickly and safely)

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/67244/upcoming-hunter-improvements
avatar: Eyonix
Blue Poster
Target Source #0 - 2007/11/21 07:54:15 PM
I wanted to share with you some changes affecting hunters that are coming in a small patch. The effect of aspect of the viper is being increased. Pet leveling speed will be substantially increased. Lastly, it will once again be possible for two freezing traps to be in place at the same time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on the PvP aspect of multi trapping
the duration for freezing trap in pvp was reduced to 8 seconds while the lowest possible CD on freezing trap is 22 seconds

making it require premeditated action to even HOPE of trapping 2 people at the same time in pvp, after all other players can easily avoid hunter traps if they notice the hunter kite circle (in pvp hunterts typically try to kite people to run into their trap and will try to keep the trap between them and the other player but if the other player notices they can easily sidestep it)

with this said multi trapping is not to be a consern in pvp due to the rarity that it would occure
85 Gnome Priest
9795
Just because their burst is higher, doesn't mean ours is too high. I shouldn't be taking away 80K health with my opening salvo in this type of gear. And heaven forbid the target be properly debuffed, because its very easy for a MM Hunter to drop 100k damage on a target before someone even knows they are there.


Once again, this is part of the problem with this being ignored or completely disregarded. Undergeared hunters are too effective and to respond to this blizzard is addressing the scaling of abilities rather than lowering base values. Long term these issues harm the class without actually fixing the main problems.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
7430
(edit:continued from above)
this ability has been very useful in the BC when CC was required, but the group was lacking in classes with a valid CC
now with cataclysm CC is once agian a very needed aspect for getting through H dungeons and raid content

Impact of Removal
with the removal of this game mechanic hunters can no longer assist their group if they are lacking in CC ability, to the same degree

Example of Impact
now lets say we are in a 5 man group for H Throne of Tides and that the group makeup consists of 1 hunter, 2 DK dps, 1 warrior tank, and 1 pally healer
the first pull (the 2 melee mobs and the 2 casters)
hunter:
-lay trap right infront of 1st then waits on CD
-gives the ready signal to group
DK(1):
-death grips healer into melee range, where tank picks up
DK(1/2):
-interupt caster from healing
Warrior:
-picks up caster, and the other melee
hunter:
-scatter shot 2nd caster, then trap lauch it into a trap
Group:
-burn down caster, then non CCed melee, then trapped caster, then other melee

this pull was made a lot easyer due to the hunters CC ability (this is not taking hunter spec or pet into the equation)

this is only 1 example of how multi trapping is effective and benefitial on a group level
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here are some reasons to keep double trapping (these are quotes from Gharbad from "Double Freezing Trap Needs to be Reinstated")



1. Its fun.

2. It requires actual skill by the player. This isn't something you can make a macro for and press one button to do, it requires patience, placement, and practice to effectively pull off. Hunters should be rewarded if they acquire the skill to double trap

4. Its a trade off for how clunky our CC is. Traps have always been the most difficult CC to use as it requires pathing prediction, accounting for the flight and arm time, and 30 seconds of wait if you mess it up. There will be no 'resheeping' here if you miss your target. Now because our CC is non targetable and has all these caveats and restrictions (spell resist, long cooldown, pathing prediction, arm time, flight time, extremely small trigger radius now) the trade off is that if we succeed with all of these, then we can trap a second Mob.

5. It doesn't 'trivialize' PvE content. Yes, we can (could) drop excellent CC in a large pull and help the group out. Yes, I've saved many a healers bacon by dropping a second trap when the healer pulls aggro. But we still had to clear those mobs and other than the one example stated, it doesn't come into play in any boss fight. Further, a second character could drop a CC and negate the hunter multi trapping on that fight, in which case you'd have the same result as stated. Finally, is it so bad to have one fight where a hunter shines for reasons other than 'leet dps'? We were one of the few classes that could kite General Drakkisath in vanilla and I don't remember cries of 'OP'. So while its very powerful against trash mobs, it doesn't trivialize boss fights. And thats where to money is, so to speak.

6. Finally, its important to the community. Some class defining abilities blizz has had to change recently for pvp balance issues. I feel for those classes as its no fun to have major changes in play style foisted upon you years later. But those at least have a justification in pvp balance. The removal of double trapping does not carry such justification as I've laid out above. The last time they attempted to remove double trapping, we as a community came together and in a calm and respectful manner laid out why the ability should be kept. We need to do so again. If this turns out to just be a coding bug and something they'll revert, great! If not, we need to convince them that it was not the correct decision and show why we are a better class, and its a better game, when double trapping exists.


(3 was skipped because it restated what i said about pvp)

so in conclusion, me and many other hunters that had the skill to multi trap feel that we should have the ability to multi trap back, and an explanation as to why it was stealth nerfed

please discuss your opinions, explaing why you do or dont support this, and dont just say its OP, ive explained why its balanced with its drawbacks V.S. advantage


at the very least blease give us the reasoning for it being removed
Edited by Alfavhunter on 2/22/2011 8:30 PM PST
85 Human Hunter
9055
02/22/2011 8:20 PMPosted by Alessandra
I understand one mistake, this is a complex game with a lot of things to keep track of. But it seems like EVERY blue post (which there are so many! /sarcasm) or patch notes there is a new misunderstanding of how the class works. WTF? Do any of you play a hunter???


I read other class discussions with blue posters and they certainly don't make this kind of mistakes about basic class mechanics. I don't want to discourage them from talking to us since they hardly ever do, but quite frankly, I understand why they refrain from doing so given their knowledge of the class.
70 Night Elf Hunter
870
Just because their burst is higher, doesn't mean ours is too high. I shouldn't be taking away 80K health with my opening salvo in this type of gear. And heaven forbid the target be properly debuffed, because its very easy for a MM Hunter to drop 100k damage on a target before someone even knows they are there.

@Daxx: Is Aimed from Stealth a bug? Right now we can wind up Aimed while Camo'd without it breaking until the shot is fired. Intended, or not?

EDIT: I only ask because of the angst this caused players when faced with Nelf Hunters back in Vanilla.


I wasn't talking about players with no resilience, i'm talking about 3k+ resilience targets we have no where near the burst as the classes i listed when resilience comes in to play.
85 Orc Hunter
4290
Let me clarify on the 0.5 second hidden cast time, since apparently the blues don't remember changes made in BC/Wrath and the reason for them.

There was a 0.5 second hidden cast time on Multi-Shot so that we couldn't cast it while moving, in BC, even though it was listed as an "instant cast." This has since been reverted.

A 0.5 second hidden cast time was also added to Aimed Shot during Cata so that you cannot cast the Instant Procced Aimed Shot! while moving. (Seriously, go try it.)

This isn't on "all ranged abilities" and does not "apply to attacks based on the ranged weapon slot." It only applies to the ones that are considered "instant" but can't be cast while moving.

Changing aspects appropriate to what you're doing isn't necessarily a problem. With the old Aspect of the Monkey, hunters would swap only when being attacked until they could make some space again. Ideally, a hunter who changes Aspects has a reason to stay in that Aspect for a little while, at least.

We're okay with players making a tactical decision between a high damage, but less mobile Aspect, and an Aspect that offers mobile damage and focus generation.


That isn't what is going to happen. Just about every hunter who knows how to will be using aspect macros for EVERY shot because having to aspect twist will be the fastest way to develop carpal tunnel. With this change it is a horrible idea to take ANY shot except cobra/steady outside of hawk.
Edited by Malisius on 2/22/2011 8:34 PM PST
85 Human Hunter
9055
Let me clarify on the 0.5 second hidden cast time, since apparently the blues don't remember changes made in BC/Wrath and the reason for them.

There was a 0.5 second hidden cast time on Multi-Shot so that we couldn't cast it while moving, in BC, even though it was listed as an "instant cast." This has since been reverted.

A 0.5 second hidden cast time was also added to Aimed Shot during Cata so that you cannot cast the Instant Procced Aimed Shot! while moving. (Seriously, go try it.)

This isn't on "all ranged abilities" and does not "apply to attacks based on the ranged weapon slot." It only applies to the ones that are considered "instant" but can't be cast while moving.


To add to what he said, please remove the hidden 0.5s delay from the instant version of "Aimed Shot!" so that it may be cast while moving, if not from all hunter ranged attacks. What is the purpose of that built-in 0.5s delay anyway? It only seems to exist to prevent classes like warriors or rogues from using ranged attacks while moving, but for hunters our shots are either instant, or usable on the run (cobra, steady, auto), or have a cast time that already forces us to stand still. All that the 0.5s delay is doing nowadays is cause bugs such as with "Aimed Shot!".
Edited by Tekemay on 2/22/2011 8:37 PM PST
89 Night Elf Hunter
12080
I'd love some, well, clarity on the freeze trap nerf as well. When we were answered in the bug forum, we were told it was a bug that was getting fixed. When I tried opening a post showing Eyonix's note where it was not a bug, but an intentional design change from TBC, no cussing, no caps, just quoting both posts, I got a week ban. Which, having never had an action on my account seemed a bit vindictive on someone's part. So I also appreciate the effort at diplomacy here. I remember the mass hunter ban-wave from the Wrath beta and avoided the Cata beta out of concern the same would happen. It was dissapointing to see it pop up in release over very fair questions.
90 Human Paladin
4775
Id like to ask why you guys made the changes you did in the first place. From the first second i logged in on my hunter after the last patch i knew we would get nerfed. Basically two shotting anything you please is not really working as intended. So why did it get to release like that?

People are sick to death of your mistakes.
85 Troll Hunter
9510
Just because their burst is higher, doesn't mean ours is too high. I shouldn't be taking away 80K health with my opening salvo in this type of gear. And heaven forbid the target be properly debuffed, because its very easy for a MM Hunter to drop 100k damage on a target before someone even knows they are there.

@Daxx: Is Aimed from Stealth a bug? Right now we can wind up Aimed while Camo'd without it breaking until the shot is fired. Intended, or not?

EDIT: I only ask because of the angst this caused players when faced with Nelf Hunters back in Vanilla.


I wasn't talking about players with no resilience, i'm talking about 3k+ resilience targets we have no where near the burst as the classes i listed when resilience comes in to play.


The crux of my argument is that if ours is deemed "too high" (which I agreed with) then its too high. Just because a couple other specs have more burst (which I also agree with) doesn't mean that particular nerf bat should miss us.

Giving Hunters higher burst isn't how you fix our PvP performance, but that discussion is for another thread.
85 Human Hunter
9055
02/22/2011 8:37 PMPosted by Zerlu
Giving Hunters higher burst isn't how you fix our PvP performance, but that discussion is for another thread.

Well, removing it sure as heck isn't going to do us any good either.
90 Orc Hunter
0
Betting on Aimed Shot AP scaling being nerfed because hard casting instead of using Arcanes is still viable.
85 Troll Hunter
9510
No it won't, but I'm operating under the assumption that they are attempting game balance, and not "hunters must have <x> many at 2600+ or they need a buff".

Personally I think our damage is fairly adequate at the moment, the major issues holding us back are roughly the same as they have been since TBC.
70 Night Elf Hunter
870


I wasn't talking about players with no resilience, i'm talking about 3k+ resilience targets we have no where near the burst as the classes i listed when resilience comes in to play.


The crux of my argument is that if ours is deemed "too high" (which I agreed with) then its too high. Just because a couple other specs have more burst (which I also agree with) doesn't mean that particular nerf bat should miss us.

Giving Hunters higher burst isn't how you fix our PvP performance, but that discussion is for another thread.


Ok, then the nerf bat shouldn't miss other classes with higher burst right? And i totally disagree with burst not being what we need, if that were the case survival would be a much better choice for pvp. More control and mobility, but you know what holds survival back? lack of burst.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
9345
02/22/2011 7:54 PMPosted by Odïnson
Marksmanship's burst damage in PvP was indeed higher than we wanted


Because hunters burst is sooooooooo much better then warriors am I right?
85 Dwarf Hunter
7635
Marksmanship's burst damage in PvP was indeed higher than kalgan/ghostcrawler wanted, their butthurt overrides common sense.


Because hunters burst is sooooooooo much better then warriors am I right?


Fixed that up for you.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
7430
Marksmanship's burst damage in PvP was indeed higher than we wanted


Because hunters burst is sooooooooo much better then warriors am I right?


no but hunter mobility is much better than a warriors, now we just need some more survivability and we might be able to survive a warrior beating on us for 3 seconds
:/
Edited by Alfavhunter on 2/22/2011 8:53 PM PST
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