Ret: Clarification Requested on WoG Nerf

90 Draenei Paladin
14875
Most Ret Paladins understand why WoG was nerfed, we just don't understand why this spell in particular was hit so heavily when the problem seemingly lies elsewhere.

The Selfless Healer talent is too good right now simply because of how much it can heal a friendly target. If this is one of the reasons WoG was hit, why not simply adjust this talent in particular so it is not so powerful?

Additionally, too much RNG is another large problem that has a large bearing on the success of SH and WoG in. Because resource generation is still very whack-a-mole, it is possible to get back to back procs on DP that make talents like SH and WoG extremely powerful. I don't understand if the potential to cause this imbalance exists with the large RNG base Retribution resides in, why is this not corrected?

PvP will take a very large hit when the WoG nerf goes thru simply because offhealing is the only true niche the Retribution Paladin has that allows it to reliably compete. With a 20 sec CD attached to WoG, it will be impossible to reliably offheal thus removing most of the motivation for taking a Ret Paladin in competetive PvP period.

Not only that, but personal surviveability will take a large hit as well with the loss of our only viable combat healing spell. Without WoG, the only other viable healing spell is Holy Light when under the effects of Crusade. The other heals simply take too long to cast and cost too much for too little gain, hence why they are almost never used. Indeed, unless helped by a miracle, these healing spells simply cannot be used in combat because they are too easy to interrupt and give too little back.

No doubt the developers must have known this in deciding on this nerf, so my questions are:

1. If WoG is going to become nigh-worthless for Paladin personal surviveability, will Retribution look to be receiving additional survival mechanics to compensate?

2. Will Selfless Healer be changed or removed if offhealing is to be so curtailed as to not be worth bringing to PvP?

3. Does this signify that additional offensive utility may be implemented to compensate for the large PvP loss both to the Ret Paladin personally and to their viability as a Rated BG/Arena partner?

4. If RNG is so large a factor in WoG's success, will we see steps taken to reduce it and make it more streamlineed thru the rotation?

On the subject, it also appears as though the WoG nerf was put into place because Templar's Verdict was almost never used in PvP environments. Understand that Templar's Verdict is rarely used in this environments simply because it is highly mitigated by both armor and resilience as well as Ret surviveability being tied to WoG since no other heal could reliably be used in combat.

If you want Retribution to use it more often, it should be strengthened to more reliably counter the formentioned mitigations as it can many times hit for a rather low amount for the amount of time and HoPo used. Have the developers considered perhaps allowing TV to deal a set percentage as Holy damage to increase it's power and appeal? Mastery helps, but alone TV could probably use some tuning.

Last question: have the developers considered giving Retribution an effective combat healing mechanic that is not tied to such rigid restrictions as WoG is set to be? Perhaps a personal healing mechanic like a HoPo version of Recuperate that can only heal the Paladin himself without similar potential as WoG for becoming too powerful thru RNG?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
VoS
12105
100 years later and they still dont understand how to nerf by tweaking numbers instead of gutting abilities.
90 Orc Warrior
8890
Putting it on a 20 second CD allows them to balance it.

Having it sometimes be near spammable makes it really hard to balance, especially when you throw wings into the mix. Just too much fluctuating in the potency of WoG for non-holy specs to make it balanced.
90 Draenei Paladin
14875
Putting it on a 20 second CD allows them to balance it.

Having it sometimes be near spammable makes it really hard to balance, especially when you throw wings into the mix. Just too much fluctuating in the potency of WoG for non-holy specs to make it balanced.


Correct. However, this will very negatively affect Retribution in particular's personal surviveability and team viability in a PvP environment. I am hoping the developers could give us some insight as to how these two problems will be handled with WoG on a 20 sec CD. There has to be a compromise if it is to do anything but hurt the spec severely.
90 Human Paladin
12980
02/24/2011 3:58 PMPosted by Andarin
Most Ret Paladins understand why WoG was nerfed, we just don't understand why this spell in particular was hit so heavily when the problem seemingly lies elsewhere.


Actually, most ret paladins don't understand why WoG was nerfed, as evidenced in your post. If you did, you'd understand the reason why it was hit so heavily. That reason is Prot PvE tanking. I can't believe some of you can't see that. Go over to our (the tanks') forums, and you'll see why.

The Sacred Shield nerf is of a lot more importance to you I'd imagine.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8830
02/24/2011 4:20 PMPosted by Dekkar
Most Ret Paladins understand why WoG was nerfed, we just don't understand why this spell in particular was hit so heavily when the problem seemingly lies elsewhere.


Actually, most ret paladins don't understand why WoG was nerfed, as evidenced in your post. If you did, you'd understand the reason why it was hit so heavily. That reason is Prot PvE tanking. I can't believe some of you can't see that. Go over to our (the tanks') forums, and you'll see why.

The Sacred Shield nerf is of a lot more importance to you I'd imagine.


If that's the case then why is the DK Deathstrike being left the way it is? They are nerfing its threat, however I do believe it's still their go to ability because of their mastery and how good it is now. The problem isn't WoG itself, it's the talents that buff it so much. The main culprit of it all is Selfless healer in the -Damage- tree for paladins (Why this was ever thought to be a good idea is beyond me)
55 Human Death Knight
0
Blizz clearly has no idea what to do with Retribution Paladins. I'm of a mind to believe their development plans consist of a dartboard and sticky notes.

Honestly, this change though early is for the first time making me seriously consider shelving my paladin. I'm tired of the constant sweeping changes to mechanics, tired of constantly having to adjust my play style.

Word of Glory is FINE, we sacrifice our single largest attack to to use it. I -wish- I had recuperate. The culprits to the 'OP' peels... I mean healing WoG does for our teammates is no internal CD on Eternal Glory during DP procs, as well as Selfless healer.

Why don't you try fixing those instead of these illogical changes.

Keep in mind Ret already is and always has been the prime focus target in Arena. First and still because our self survivability is the worst of any melee class in the game. We lack the cooldowns or the options outside of bubble to truly defend ourselves. And now they are taking away the one thing we do have, Sacred Shield, and making it pretty useless.

Tell me Blizz do you even realize how long a minute is in Arena while you're being hard focused? It's a friggin eternity.

We finally become viable, we are finally actually wanted on Arena teams. We finally have a real role and purpose, and dear God, we can't possibly have that. Did you conveniently forget the fact that Holy Paladin's are already the worst healers in PvP? Did you forget the fact that Prot is neigh useless in PvP. Lets nerf ret right back into the ground!? We can't possibly have healer based hybrids doing anything but healing their pure class overlords in PvP.

And hey how about a little communication Blizz, it's sorely lacking on your part. Can you at least enlighten us into your thought process? Or is it to much to ask, since you can't actually explain a clear vision for the Paladin class?
1 Human Warlock
0
What's going to happen to the Eternal Glory talent in light of this nerf? Will we be able to use 2 WoGs in a row if the 30% chance for a HoPo-free WoW procs? If not, I don't see why anyone would consider taking this talent.
85 Blood Elf Warlock
1800
Putting it on a 20 second CD allows them to balance it.

Having it sometimes be near spammable makes it really hard to balance, especially when you throw wings into the mix. Just too much fluctuating in the potency of WoG for non-holy specs to make it balanced.


It is too powerful because of Endless Word procs and Selfless Healer. That ability is the kind of ability they want based on their design philosophy. Rets have to make a decision between doing damage, or healing, they can't have both. If they are healing, their damage is pretty trash (by healing I mean using WoG primarily), and they they are primarily doing damage they aren't healing for very much.

02/24/2011 5:02 PMPosted by Hanalore
What's going to happen to the Eternal Glory talent in light of this nerf? Will we be able to use 2 WoGs in a row if the 30% chance for a HoPo-free WoW procs? If not, I don't see why anyone would consider taking this talent.


It will still be a good talent, it lets you follow up a WoG with a TV as many rets do right now.
Edited by Rearended on 2/24/2011 5:05 PM PST
90 Draenei Paladin
14875
We are trying to understand, but there is no real rational behind wrecking Sacred Shield and then effectively gutting our only viable combat heal, which not only further ruins our own personal surviveability, but also destroys any niche Retribution had in competetive PvP.

Where is the logic behind this decision? Yes, Prot healing was a problem and Selfless Healer is too good, we understand that. But this move was too far encompassing and severely handicapped Retribution in particular just when it was starting to get on it's feet.

Is this just the beginning move to give certain specs more balanced and fair healing with this mechanic while properly compensating them so as not to leave them underpowered, or do the developers truely not understand how dire the consequences of this action are?

If Retribution is not given something back, and it would have to be something pretty good at this point to make up for the loss of any effective self and offhealing as well as their PvP niche, there will be zero point in bringing one to PvP because they will die insultingly fast and give no tangible benefit to their teammates, once again become nothing but a weight to hold their team back. Can we please get some answers so we at least know you understand this and are not simply feeding us to the wolves on a whim?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
Putting it on a 20 second CD allows them to balance it.

Having it sometimes be near spammable makes it really hard to balance, especially when you throw wings into the mix. Just too much fluctuating in the potency of WoG for non-holy specs to make it balanced.


It is too powerful because of Endless Word procs and Selfless Healer. That ability is the kind of ability they want based on their design philosophy. Rets have to make a decision between doing damage, or healing, they can't have both. If they are healing, their damage is pretty trash (by healing I mean using WoG primarily), and they they are primarily doing damage they aren't healing for very much.

02/24/2011 5:02 PMPosted by Hanalore
What's going to happen to the Eternal Glory talent in light of this nerf? Will we be able to use 2 WoGs in a row if the 30% chance for a HoPo-free WoW procs? If not, I don't see why anyone would consider taking this talent.


It will still be a good talent, it lets you follow up a WoG with a TV as many rets do right now.


It however is an extremely devalued near worthless talent. WoG will probably used 1/4 of the amount it used to be, these means a lot less procs and the procs feeling more random. EG, Last Word, and Protector of the innocent are all very devalued talents and nearly worthless with this change.

If EG was really that big of talent when teamed up with Ret or prot than why not just shove it into Holy. This would remove the whole DP not triggering the ICD on EG, and would mean that Ret would have to line up 3 HP with a DP proc in order to use it back to back.

My main complaint is that there were multitudes of ways to accomplish the same thing without applying a C/D to the spell. Am i surprised by this? Of course not, this is how they always do this.

Ultimately i am not going to fight the C/D but i think we need to start a thread that isn't about complaining. I am also more worried about the SS nerf. If the ICD is going to be 1 min than why can't you let me control it and just give it a 1 min C/D. With all the burst that is going around it is impossible for SS to be leapfrogged. Even though that is unlikely to happen, it isn't impossible.

85 Draenei Priest
3460
Do you guys really need all these threads on this?
90 Human Paladin
6835
In my opition the problems with WoG (for ret at least) Does not lie in the RNG talents, or the no cd part of WoG.

The problems with WoG are:

A) Selfless healer.
B) Sacred shield increasing healing done by 20%

Before the patch ret self healing was terrible. Everone knew this. After the patch ret gets a SS proc and can bomb itself to full in no time.

Before the patch retsself healing was poor yet still a decision to use...should I get my hp up or keep dpsing? Where as selfless healer WoG was completely out of hand and everyone knew it. But our damage was so poor its all we brought.

To fix this I would suggest the following:

A) Removal of the Selfess healer talent, To be replaced with something to control a player. Not sure exactly what the answer is here but it should be something with a short colldown or none at all that allows us to either control an opponent when going for them or peel for our partners. (Without being able to peel, viability is a real issue).

B) Make it so that when Sacred shield procs it only increases healing done BY OTHERS by 20%. So the paladins self heals go back to how they were before the last patch.

Why do this:
Removing selfless healer will bring ret offhealing down significatly and in turn it will make it more of a decision to heal or dps.

Why do ret need WoG: WoG is currently our pressure eleviator. Other classes can accomplish this by Disarming/snaring/silenceing/gouging/spamable cc'ing. Snaring being probably the most underated of them all but probably one of the most potent peels in the game.
Edited by Ruzael on 2/24/2011 5:39 PM PST
67 Troll Priest
2520
@ #3
Putting it on a 20 second CD allows them to balance it.


I thought building up 3 HP to use it, and not using TV is what balanced it?
Edited by Docjin on 2/24/2011 5:39 PM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
17120
Selfless healer isn't the problem. 1 BIG wog crit wasn't what was so amazing about it. it's getting 3-4 of them in a row due to all the RNG procs. This change fixes that, although rather harshly. I wouldn't be surprised to see its CD down to 8-10 seconds when the patch goes live.
90 Human Paladin
6835
02/24/2011 5:42 PMPosted by Footsz
Selfless healer isn't the problem. 1 BIG wog crit wasn't what was so amazing about it. it's getting 3-4 of them in a row due to all the RNG procs. This change fixes that, although rather harshly. I wouldn't be surprised to see its CD down to 8-10 seconds when the patch goes live.


I disagree. If a 45-49k heal was to be reduced to a 25-30k heal then it takes almost 2 heals to make 1 so already the back to back procs are less powerful and you need to invest in more globals and holy power / procs spent to get your partners up.

ATM WoG is amazing because 1 or 2 in a row can bring someone from the Red zone to full and then your back on the offensive. If it took 3-4 instead of 1-2 then thats a much bigger investment and a bigger decision to make.
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