World of Warcraft®

03/01/2011 9:21 PMPosted by Cbredbeard

People feel a certain way. If they actually stopped to think, they'd know when Word of Glory is appropiate and when it is not. Ultimately, you're going to die if you don't kill the boss and you're not going to do that by healing yourself all the time.

While the first part is partially true, assuming you are good on threat, currently you can never go wrong by choosing WoG. If you overheal yourself, so what? You get a shield that effectively makes it so it can't overheal unless you avoid the next 2-3 attacks.

The damage contribution by SotR even over the course of an entire fight is almost completely insignificant.

In a 10 man setting, using SotR every time over a 6m fight assuming it hits for somewhere in the ballpark of 25k, you'll effectively shorten the encounter by 12s, assuming every single SotR hits and you can use it every 12s.

The difference is much less noticeable in a 25 man.

WoG, on the other hand, will save your healers mana because they have to heal you less often. With you healing yourself for a greater portion, they can focus elsewhere, and this can stop DPS or the other tank from dying. This matters. 12 seconds doesn't matter.

Until they OOM?

You mean 3-4 uses..... yeah right.

Divine Light heals for 12k on my Retadin who is wearing quested stuff that just hit 85 today. 4 of those (I doubt she could cast 4 before OOMing) would heal for 48k.

She has 106k health.

That's not even 50% of her total health. I'd have to blow ALL of my mana to heal not even HALF of my health?

Oh, and Rogues just like Warriors, heal a % of their max health, not a fixed amount like WoG.

ONE Recuperate, untalented heals 30% of max health, untalented. Talented, it heals 50% of Max Health.

Combat Rogues get a talent to keep Recuperate up at all times, assuming they can kill 1 mob every 30 seconds (easy).

Okay first off that is not even close to correct. Rogues regen 2% of their hp per 3 seconds. At 5combo points it lasts 30seconds. IE after FIVE combo points its 20% heal. Improved recup moves that upto 40%.


A 100k hp rogue will then have a HPS of 0.6k hps to 1.3hps. Holy light healing for 6k is a 3k hps and YOU CAN heal yourself to full using Holy light. I have done it on this paladin.

I used Divine light in my example to show that your complaint is ridiculous. Its nearly 6k hps. The idea that a rogue has higher hps than us ignores all our casted heals.

Why are you so worried about self-healing when grinding quests? Are you really taking that much damage?

The main purpose of this change is for raiding protection paladins, as to bring them more in-line with the other tanks.

When's the last time you solo quested with your Ret Paladin at 85, without wearing Heroic Dungeon gear?

Yes, we take a LOT of damage. Like I said, in Tol Barad Daily questing, ONE mob hits for 3-4k damage per attack. Crits are 6-7k.

Keep in mind, WoG is only 12-14k for a player who just hit 85 and did Twilight Highlands, and is wearing whatever craftables do not take Chaos Orbs, IE, the type of player who is doing TB for the weapon and/or trinkets.

Even with Holy Light, that's only what, 15k if you kill something, AND you have to stop and cast.

Ever went to Rustberg Village, killed something, then had 2 more mobs respawn right ontop of you? Happens to me every day I go in there, esp after they INCREASED the mob spawn rate (hint: they should have reduced how many mobs were needed for the quest, not increased the spawn rate). 2 mobs at once, with only 1 heal every 20 seconds? Okay, so you'll say "Use Rep!" ... except Rep doesn't work on everything, kinda like those crocs that also respawn ontop of you. Nope, no Repentance for Beasts.

No I haven't played an 85 ret paladin, and I cannot discount your claims. However, I can encourage you to take them to another thread (DPS?) where it belongs, as this is the tanking forum and that is what the majority is discussing.

While not a whole lot of end-game guilds do this, it will be nice to make it so guilds don't feel obligated to raid with 2x prot pallies due to their WoG self healing and of course, their raidwall cooldowns with the upcoming changes.

Daxxarri has said there will be a post about Retribution soon™. This isn't a Ret PvP thread. Please wait for the one Daxxarri mentioned.

I know you have concerns too but this isn't the thread for it.

Actually...

It's kind of a shared Protection/Retribution thread, even though this is the tanking forum. I actually hadn't planned on a separate thread elsewhere on the same topic.

Apologies if I wasn't clear about that!

Ret PvP? In MY tanking forums? It's more likely than you think.

Daxxarri has said there will be a post about Retribution soon™. This isn't a Ret PvP thread. Please wait for the one Daxxarri mentioned.

I know you have concerns too but this isn't the thread for it.

Actually...

It's kind of a shared Protection/Retribution thread, even though this is the tanking forum. I actually hadn't planned on a separate thread elsewhere on the same topic.

Apologies if I wasn't clear about that!

Gah, my bad. I completely misread this:

03/01/2011 8:17 PMPosted by Daxxarri

I realize that Word of Glory is also on Retribution's platter at the moment, and we have something to share about its role in that spec as well, despite this being the tanking forum.

I thought that was meaning you had something to share and it would be separate to what was posted here. Given that tanks and PvP don't really mix you'll have to forgive me for that misunderstanding.

/sits down again

03/01/2011 9:13 PMPosted by Daxxarri

I didn't say it's overpowered, don't really care. I said I would rather they change it because they believe it's overpowered than change it because people want to deal more damage.

We didn't change it because a tank wanted to dps. We changed it because we weren't comfortable with how it felt to tank as Protection.

There's a crucial difference in there somewhere.

The issue I have is that the change is being made seemingly based on the CD of Zealotry (20secs) when prot doesn't have that ability.

I'm not advocating a CD free heal but 20secs is just insane for prot.

In the general forums I suggested that Guarded by the light have the CD reduced to 6secs with 2 points in that talent. It avoids the tank from spamming the self heal while leaving us free to use it more than once or twice on a trash pull, which is where it's most commonly needed. So each point would reduce the CD by 7secs making the ability less of a main go to but not completely killing it and the usefullness of the Guarded by the light/Eternal Glory talents.

Daxxarri has said there will be a post about Retribution soon™. This isn't a Ret PvP thread. Please wait for the one Daxxarri mentioned.

I know you have concerns too but this isn't the thread for it.

Actually...

It's kind of a shared Protection/Retribution thread, even though this is the tanking forum. I actually hadn't planned on a separate thread elsewhere on the same topic.

Apologies if I wasn't clear about that!

In that case, why not just delete Selfless Healer and not put a cooldown on Word of Glory for ret? IIRC, Blizzard didn't want Retribution being an offhealer or even a support DPS, yes, our utility is valuable to a point, but we cannot be viable as a melee DPS without a real melee toolkit. We have no way to guarantee uptime and we have no peels.

Edit: I'd be happy to talk in a Retribution thread if it was created and replied to though.

03/01/2011 8:23 PMPosted by Zarko

We also like the way Word of Glory interacts with Vengeance because then the heal scales with the content. If you’re taking a lot of damage, the heal is more potent than it would be otherwise.

This is fine, and could be good design, but if that's the case, WoG should drop your vengeance stack--it's just too powerful otherwise.

If the CD stays as it is? Hell no, let's not make it even less of a reason to press the button in the first place.

We didn't change it because a tank wanted to dps. We changed it because we weren't comfortable with how it felt to tank as Protection.

There's a crucial difference in there somewhere.

The issue I have is that the change is being made seemingly based on the CD of Zealotry (20secs) when prot doesn't have that ability.

I'm not advocating a CD free heal but 20secs is just insane for prot.

In the general forums I suggested that Guarded by the light have the CD reduced to 6secs with 2 points in that talent. It avoids the tank from spamming the self heal while leaving us free to use it more than once or twice on a trash pull, which is where it's most commonly needed. So each point would reduce the CD by 7secs making the ability less of a main go to but not completely killing it and the usefullness of the Guarded by the light/Eternal Glory talents.

The CD is based on roughly the amount of time it takes to get six holy power, not zealotry. Its supposed to force you to use a different holy power ability between words of glory.

A 6 second cooldown is -almost- the same as no cooldown at all, except in that it makes EG much worse for healing and doesn't let you spam 1-2 holy power snipe heals at the raid. EG isn't what makes WoG imbalanced, and letting you spend all of your normally generated holy power on WoG completely defeats the purpose of what they are trying to do. They don't want Prot paladins to go 3 HP-->WoG-->3 HP-->WoG-->3 HP-->WoG.

As for Ret leveling/questing, the concerns are overstated. WoG + crusade is still fairly strong in terms of healing while leveling/questing. The only outlier in that regard is victory rush, which is WAY too powerful when procced from a killing blow. Back when Tol Barad demons and whatever would spawn instantaneously, people got overwhelmed and died all the time around me, except me, as I just tore through them easily healing through the damage of 5+ mobs with victory rush. Victory rush needs to heal for less, or, perhaps, get a cooldown of its own.

Okay first off that is not even close to correct. Rogues regen 2% of their hp per 3 seconds. At 5combo points it lasts 30seconds. IE after FIVE combo points its 20% heal. Improved recup moves that upto 40%.

Actually, 4.1 says 3/4 with talent. Still, 40% without having to spend any resources beyond the first 5 CPs as long as you keep killing things.....

A 100k hp rogue will then have a HPS of 0.6k hps to 1.3hps. Holy light healing for 6k is a 3k hps and YOU CAN heal yourself to full using Holy light. I have done it on this paladin.

The Rogue gets their HPS while in combat, out of combat, while flying, while moving, while running, while fighting as long as they kill 1 mob that yields experience or honor before it wears off.

Holy Light, however, requires you to STAND STILL and CAST A SPELL to get that HPS. Oh, and casting Holy Light to fill yourself up? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Okay, you kill a mob and get Crusade. Heal yourself with holy light, that's about what, 14-16k HP healed? Let's say you were a smidgeon from death. You have 16k HP now. You have 106k max (my 85 does). That's 90k left. Holy Light does about 6k-ish? Soemthing like that? You'd have to heal yourself, assuming it does 6k, fifteen times assuming no crits. Heck, we'll call it 12 times with crits and such. It has a 3 second cast time. It will take you 40-ish seconds (including the first Holy Light) to heal from 0 to full. Won't take much mana, but um, you're standing there for the better part of a minute standing there, casting.

Meanwhile, that warrior beside you killed something, moved onto the next mob, and regained 30% of his health, *snap* just like that.

That combat rogue? If he keeps killin, he keeps his HoT up. That Frost DK gets 15% of his max health every rune recharge if he doesn't mind sacrificing some DPS.

I used Divine light in my example to show that your complaint is ridiculous. Its nearly 6k hps. The idea that a rogue is out healing us ignores all our casted heals.

Because that rogue is MOVING AND FIGHTING while being healed.

Casted Heals are just that. Stand still and cast. Can't attack while casting, and there's also push-back if you're getting hit, yaknow, from that mob that respawned ontop of you?

Idea:

Casting Word of Glory reduces the effectiveness of your next Word of Glory by 50%, lasts 10 seconds.
Holy has a talent/specialization to remove the effect.

Thoughts?

03/01/2011 9:32 PMPosted by Irontager

This is fine, and could be good design, but if that's the case, WoG should drop your vengeance stack--it's just too powerful otherwise.

If the CD stays as it is? Hell no, let's not make it even less of a reason to press the button in the first place.

I don't see why you're complaining about a controlled self heal. Okay, so WoG has a 20 second cooldown, in 20 seconds a feral druid will heal for about 22000ish overall; this is looking at my average LOTP heals and they were about 7.4k a tick. This is also assuming they actually go off right as the internal cooldown is off, and that it actually heals damage. A lot of LOTP overheals, and guess what, we get no benefit for overhealing.

If you ever look at WoL and check out "healing done" for bears, take a moment and laugh at how little LOTP actually does in a raid setting.

While I realise its in the wrong forum and slightly off the topic, I'd just like to ask the Dev's why on earth Warriors and Rogues, of all classes, needed the ability to heal themselves and if it was deemed that they did, why for so much? It is directly related to Retributions WoG Nerf.

I've played this class, (warrior) for a long time and one thing I have missed is the days where winning a battle in pvp was about balancing what health you had, with your ability to deal enough damage to win the fight.

The days of Intimidating shout to get a bandage off to just barely get a win in a 1 vs 1 encounter, now those were the days when warriors required skill. (I realise you dont balance around 1 v 1 but the point is still valid) bring back the skill and take away the crutch that's been given to warriors and rogues.

If Ret was deemed far too strong in pvp, (not sure how anybody came to that conclusion outside of 3's, even there its easilly countered, but at least semi strong) then okay, turn it down a notch and we'll scratch our heads trying to understand how you arrived at the conclusion in the first place, (as most Ret's are doing currently it seems) but you surely can't be happy with a system that sees warriors and rogues possessing the ability to outheal a Retribution Paladin, (as has been shown on current PTR), surely you can see my point there?

A Rogue of all classes getting powerful selfheals? What the heck for? Between good stun control, blind to then get bandage off if neccesary, stealth to disengage and escape if a fight does go pear shaped, 70% movement speed reduction on anybody trying to chase them or a friend down, that can be applied via an area of effect attack, (best movement reduction in the game, rivalled only by Deathknights and druids to a far lesser extent) Do they really need or warrant powerful self healing on top of all that?

I really do think the Dev's need to re-look at and at least re-evaluate the current direction they are taking with melee classes having self healing. What would be the point of being a primary healing class if the melee dps you used to play beside in bg's no longer really need your services outside of a mindless zergfest style battle such as TB or AV?

As far as Ret's self healing being too strong goes, the other healing class offspecs can all offheal very well if they have to, why is it that Paladins shouldn't be able to do the same?

Boomkins can offheal well if needed, Shadow priests have no issues throwing a heal, Ele shamans have no issue, why should Retributions heal be nigh on worthless? If you are balancing classes, then isn't having one far worse off than the other healing class offspecs, a major issue that needs to be addressed?

Idea:

Casting Word of Glory reduces the effectiveness of your next Word of Glory by 50%, lasts 10 seconds.
Holy has a talent/specialization to remove the effect.

Thoughts?

If you miss a CS, you won't notice this.

If you don't miss a CS, just wait a second and you won't notice it.

Needs to be much longer.

03/01/2011 9:26 PMPosted by Euliat

While the first part is partially true, assuming you are good on threat, currently you can never go wrong by choosing WoG. If you overheal yourself, so what? You get a shield that effectively makes it so it can't overheal unless you avoid the next 2-3 attacks.

Actually, that's not true. You can help preserve a little mana for your healers, but if they aren't having mana issues and are having no issues keeping you alive, your pitiful little heal is only prolonging the fight. And what if you lose a dps or healer at a crucial moment and need to burn the boss down? All the damage you would have otherwise done and contributed to the burn is non-existent and not helping you finish the fight.

The damage contribution by SotR even over the course of an entire fight is almost completely insignificant.

Yeah, I know, it's something like 1.5-3k a second if you really focus on using it and building up good amounts of vengenance. Of course, if you lose dps at some point in the fight, you've already made up for that loss somewhat in advance by using SotR.

In a 10 man setting, using SotR every time over a 6m fight assuming it hits for somewhere in the ballpark of 25k, you'll effectively shorten the encounter by 12s, assuming every single SotR hits and you can use it every 12s.

Even one second might be the difference between a life saving phase change.

WoG, on the other hand, will save your healers mana because they have to heal you less often. With you healing yourself for a greater portion, they can focus elsewhere, and this can stop DPS or the other tank from dying. This matters. 12 seconds doesn't matter.

Warriors don't have to self-heal and they tank just fine. Frankly, I'd rather have my healers worried about me than thinking that they don't. And then there's the mana saved by contributing to the dps of the fight. If something causes raid damage and I cause that something to die or shift stances so as to not cause raid damage, I've effectively saved mana for the healers.

03/01/2011 9:38 PMPosted by Migina

Okay first off that is not even close to correct. Rogues regen 2% of their hp per 3 seconds. At 5combo points it lasts 30seconds. IE after FIVE combo points its 20% heal. Improved recup moves that upto 40%.

Actually, 4.1 says 3/4 with talent. Still, 40% without having to spend any resources beyond the first 5 CPs as long as you keep killing things.....

A 100k hp rogue will then have a HPS of 0.6k hps to 1.3hps. Holy light healing for 6k is a 3k hps and YOU CAN heal yourself to full using Holy light. I have done it on this paladin.

The Rogue gets their HPS while in combat, out of combat, while flying, while moving, while running, while fighting as long as they kill 1 mob that yields experience or honor before it wears off.

Holy Light, however, requires you to STAND STILL and CAST A SPELL to get that HPS. Oh, and casting Holy Light to fill yourself up? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Okay, you kill a mob and get Crusade. Heal yourself with holy light, that's about what, 14-16k HP healed? Let's say you were a smidgeon from death. You have 16k HP now. You have 106k max (my 85 does). That's 90k left. Holy Light does about 6k-ish? Soemthing like that? You'd have to heal yourself, assuming it does 6k, fifteen times assuming no crits. Heck, we'll call it 12 times with crits and such. It has a 3 second cast time. It will take you 40-ish seconds (including the first Holy Light) to heal from 0 to full. Won't take much mana, but um, you're standing there for the better part of a minute standing there, casting.

Meanwhile, that warrior beside you killed something, moved onto the next mob, and regained 30% of his health, *snap* just like that.

That combat rogue? If he keeps killin, he keeps his HoT up. That Frost DK gets 15% of his max health every rune recharge if he doesn't mind sacrificing some DPS.

I used Divine light in my example to show that your complaint is ridiculous. Its nearly 6k hps. The idea that a rogue is out healing us ignores all our casted heals.

[/quote]

Why is it that only ret paladins are apparently able to end fights almost dead?

If a rogue ends a fight almost dead, even with a fresh recuperate, they are going to end up at less than half health unless they bandage or eat.

A DK that ends a fight almost dead can ghoul sac if the cooldown is available, else he has no out of combat healing options other than the standard bandage/food.

The only significant outlier in long term killing is a warrior, because they are basically immortal even if swarmed with mobs provided they can kill one before they die. And yes, that is a problem, and yes, victory rush should probably get a healing reduction or a cooldown.

Its intended that world mobs actually present some sort of threat to you. If you pull 3+ mobs, you are supposed to have a difficult time, at least when you don't overgear the area. At the least, that should require you to pop some cooldowns.

If the CD stays as it is? Hell no, let's not make it even less of a reason to press the button in the first place.

I don't see why you're complaining about a controlled self heal. Okay, so WoG has a 20 second cooldown, in 20 seconds a feral druid will heal for about 22000ish overall; this is looking at my average LOTP heals and they were about 7.4k a tick. This is also assuming they actually go off right as the internal cooldown is off, and that it actually heals damage. A lot of LOTP overheals, and guess what, we get no benefit for overhealing.

If you ever look at WoL and check out "healing done" for bears, take a moment and laugh at how little LOTP actually does in a raid setting.

Maybe it's because of the fact that after the thick hide changes that Bears mitigate the most physical damage BY FAR? Look at what Daxxari just said ffs, They have to find a balance between Tank self-healing and pure mitigation/EH in a way that won't homogenize all the tanks.

@Warchild: They gave Warriors and Rogues self-heals (rightfully so) because nobody likes to stop what they're doing, and sit down and eat every other kill.

I -hated- that crap back in Wrath. It sucked. That's one of the main reasons I played Paladins, DKs, and Shamans, the lack of having to stop and eat.

It is the very same reason I quit playing Frost DK pre-Dark Succor. I went Blood and never went back, even though it does less DPS, it has a LOT more survivability in solo PvE.

With this ret change, I dunno. I don't like how squishy Ret Paladins will be in solo PvE combat. They will have -the- fewest self-heals outside of casted heals (no other melee has to rely on casted heals, not even Shamans; they get Maelstrom Weapon to make theirs instant, so do druids!)

ALL MELEE have Instant-Cast Self-Heals.

Warriors get 20-30% every time they kill something that yields XP or Honor.
Rogues get their bandaids that is easily enough to keep them going.
Shamans get Maelstrom Weapon.
Druids get their 20% x CP chance after a finishing move to make a heal instant-cast.
Death Knights get Death Strike + Dark Succor, 15% every Death Strike.

Paladins have....?

WoG. 20 second cooldown, the heal isn't even enough to last 20 seconds.

Why should Ret Paladins be the one and only MELEE class without adequate passive/instant self-heals?

I don't see why you're complaining about a controlled self heal. Okay, so WoG has a 20 second cooldown, in 20 seconds a feral druid will heal for about 22000ish overall; this is looking at my average LOTP heals and they were about 7.4k a tick. This is also assuming they actually go off right as the internal cooldown is off, and that it actually heals damage. A lot of LOTP overheals, and guess what, we get no benefit for overhealing.

If you ever look at WoL and check out "healing done" for bears, take a moment and laugh at how little LOTP actually does in a raid setting.

Maybe it's because of the fact that after the thick hide changes that Bears mitigate the most physical damage BY FAR? Look at what Daxxari just said ffs, They have to find a balance between Tank self-healing and pure mitigation/EH in a way that won't homogenize all the tanks.

"BY FAR?" really? News to me. Bears are mitigating about the exact same that they always have (assuming they had PotP) and actually mitigating less magic damage.

If you want to talk about raw "mitigation" then paladins armor, which is just fine, combined with block and WoG overhealing shields, yeah... Bears are BY FAR ahead of you.

Please take some time to look over WoLs of raiding guilds (preferably heroic) and come back.