Blood - What is the developer's design goal?

85 Human Death Knight
03/04/2011 3:20 PMPosted by Emerníum
/Bitter comment about "Of course the Teacher's Pet of Blizzard would get a blue post".

86 Human Death Knight
03/04/2011 3:20 PMPosted by Emerníum
/Bitter comment about "Of course the Teacher's Pet of Blizzard would get a blue post".

...I think you are confusing DKs with, well could really be just about any other class.
90 Night Elf Druid
03/04/2011 3:48 PMPosted by Dhartin
/Bitter comment about "Of course the Teacher's Pet of Blizzard would get a blue post".

...I think you are confusing DKs with, well could really be just about any other class.

Talk to the back of my fluffy bear tank butt. -.-

Or you could bring it up with all the other classes who are getting nearly ziltch in replies.
85 Goblin Death Knight
03/03/2011 1:41 PMPosted by Daxxarri
On that note, I'm curious: what kind of trade-offs do you guys find interesting when you're selecting talents in the Blood tree? If you had the opportunity to alter or devise talents that appeal to different styles of play, without being mandatory to both (and without cherry-picking talents from other tanking trees, since tanking styles differ so greatly) where would you start?

First I'll look at current choices that I think are interesting:

Slightly more damage/threat versus slightly more resources

An example of this is that at tier 1 3/3 Blade Barrier is essential for tanking, and then you must either put two points in Butchery or two in Bladed Armor to proceed. Bladed Armor increases threat/damage slightly, but other than a small increase to death coil healing if you have lichborne, doesn't decrease the damage you take. Butchery generates a trickle of RP which over time via RE procs can convert to more death strikes.

Bladed Armor isn't essential for threat so isn't mandatory, and Butchery doesn't generate enough RP to make it mandatory. So, you can choose between "slightly more damage/threat" and "slightly more RP" which I think is an interesting choice.

Even though this is in some sense a "survivability versus threat" type choice, the survivability from Butchery is small and not guaranteed, so it doesn't become mandatory.

Blood-Caked-Blade could be another example of this, except due to mandatory talents in tier 2 onwards it's difficult to get to a point where you have any points for BCB without giving up something more survival-oriented.

Interesting utility: Desecration / Endless Winter

The option of speccing into Desecration in Unholy makes slowing/kiting strategies doable with DKs that might otherwise rely on hunter traps/earthbind etc. So, it's interesting to have this choice available. In contrast, I don't think Hand of Doom is a very interesting choice because it doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't otherwise do, for example interrupt every cast by a boss like arcanotron.

Endless Winter makes interrupts a lot more manageable, allowing a DK to interrupt without a big trade-off. Endless Winter is good because it's not mandatory for interrupting (like Virulence used to be when it was spell hit), but it does have a big effect when you do need to interrupt. So it's an interesting choice as to whether you want to make a small sacrifice for fights in general for big impact in specific fights where you have to interrupt. Endless Winter is also interesting because 1/2 is a legitimate choice unlike say Abomination's Might.

So, how might I change the blood tree to allow for interesting choices?

My aim would be to a) make sure that there were points left over after the mandatory talents were taken and b) for the options for those remaining points, make sure that they were all relatively low-impact so none became mandatory.

So, we might get something like:
Tier 1: Blade Barrier, Butchery, Blood-Caked Blade
Blade Barrier is mandatory, BCB now readily available to dps specs, choice between slightly more RP(butchery) or more threat(BCB) for tanks. Bladed Armor gone.
Tier 2: Scarlet Fever(now 1 point), Scent of Blood, Imp Blood Tap, new talent
Scarlet Fever changed to reduce mandatory talent spend, and because there's no point in the 1 point debuff existing.
Tier 3: Bone Shield, Toughness, Abom's Might(now 1 point), new talent
Abom's Might reduced to 1 point because 2 talent points with minimal personal gain is a big cost for a tank who has to provide this debuff, and there's no need for the existence of the buff provided by 1/2 Abom's Might.
Tier 4-7 remain the same.
The "new talent" slots allow for a few more low-impact talents to make choices more interesting. In the above I count 28 mandatory choices, leaving two points to spend in things like Abom's Might, Crimson Scourge or one of the new talents. Once you go ahead and put points in unholy or frost there's room for more points in blood again.

Examples of new talents for the new talent slots that could be interesting without being mandatory, which are either minor but not mandatory utility, slightly more damage/threat or slightly more RP:
Bladed Armor(not new but could change positions in the tree)
Corpse Explosion (allows tanks an RP-based way to aoe, could put it far enough into blood to avoid any balance issues with dps specs)
A talent that generated more resources (runes or RP) if you were tanking >1 mob. For example, whenever your blood boil deals damage to >1 target, generate some amount of RP.
A talent that converts death strike overhealing to damage (being damage-based the talent wouldn't be mandatory)
A talent that reduces the cooldown remaining on Death Grip when you cast Blood Boil (makes it easier in a situation where you have to pick up adds during a fight)
86 Human Death Knight
So now I'm curious, outside of this thread when was the last time DKs got a reply about well anything good or bad?

Hrm wait I remember the one about DPS now, how it was UH was nerfed for PVE and they where watching Frost.

Yep we are the golden child of WoW, awesome.
Edited by Dhartin on 3/4/2011 4:03 PM PST
85 Goblin Death Knight
Interesting thread, and means a bit more to me as I got promoted to part time Main Tank B starting this week.

Though, people mentioning how Unholy and Frost got quality of life changes recently as a means to get Blood fixed ASAP are assuming that just because no changes are announced up to this exact second, that nothing will be fixed.

Frost spec probably thought they were the most ignored spec in the entire game until Blizzard waved their wand and suddenly, poof, no more blood runes and hello damage increases.

I wouldn't act like the sky is falling, but rather just keep on discussing concerns and possible fixes.

Trust me, we aren't the only spec in the game that has some issues. Just because they aren't addressed this very instant just means Blizzard is still making their rounds.
Edited by Zebrahed on 3/4/2011 4:02 PM PST
85 Human Death Knight

Talk to the back of my fluffy bear tank butt. -.-

Or you could bring it up with all the other classes who are getting nearly ziltch in replies.

Perhaps you should look up the posting history of Blizzard and DK tanks in the past 10 months.

All of the tank classes have recently received some blue attention, with this one being the latest.
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