Blood - What is the developer's design goal?

85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300
03/02/2011 8:08 PMPosted by Slanidh
And Heart Strike - the name is misleading. It sounds like a devastating single target attack, like Execute maybe - like you're stabbing your enemy right through their chest. Instead its a cleave.


4.1-

Heart Strike is changed to "Hearts Strike"


:D
100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
First, thank you for your time and your post. We all sincerely appreciate it.

That being said, respectfully, I have some problems.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Death Strike is a centerpiece of the Blood Deathknight arsenal. It’s your core strike, and we expect that’s where most of your runes go.


The convergence of Death Runes from Death Strike, Blade Barrier, and a signature strike with a cost perfectly situated to sub-optimally eat those Death Runes makes achieving that objective much more convoluted than should be necessary.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
That said, while the best DK tank in the world can do some impressive things, we don't expect every player to perform at that level to be a good tank. While it might be challenging to execute perfectly, the rotation is also reasonably forgiving, especially for heroic dungeons and normal raids.


Forgiving is not the word I'd use.... it tempts the player to make mistakes in resource use.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Outbreak helps with this, and having diseases up helps with threat in general.


I don't see many tanks concerned with threat these days. The threat portion of diseases is fine; the next bit is where things get tricky.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
On the other hand, if you’re specifically in a situation where you've got solid aggro on a mob and you only care about your survival, then it's probably a good idea to prioritize Death Strike over disease reapplication.


Caring for survival makes a Blood tank avoid using debuffs responsible for (0.8*0.9=0.72) a 28% reduction in incoming melee damage.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
If you need to handle more than one creature, Pestilence can help by letting you use Blood runes to spread diseases.


Could we get some more reasons to like blood runes? As Blood? Please?

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
DK healing is intended to scale with incoming damage. A heroic raid boss hits much harder than a normal raid boss and the DK will accordingly self-heal more.


You missed the concern about overhealing.

Again, thanks for taking the time to post about Blood.
90 Orc Death Knight
10920
Thanks for the reply but you guys are way out of touch with the class. I'm amazed at most of your conclusions.
85 Human Death Knight
12405
The deathknight class isn't innately easy to play. We start them at high level and require players to have some familiarity with World of Warcraft (in the form of a higher level character) before they can make one. It's not intended as a class for beginners. That said, while the best DK tank in the world can do some impressive things, we don't expect every player to perform at that level to be a good tank. While it might be challenging to execute perfectly, the rotation is also reasonably forgiving, especially for heroic dungeons and normal raids.


Why don't you hold the other two DK specs to the same standards? Their rotations have been specifically modified to remove "rune tunnel vision" and enhance quality of life and ease of use, while you're telling Blood that its OK that it has to eat nails for breakfast because it's a hero class.

Disease management was significantly simplified for Unholy and Frost, but not only was Blood left alone, it had it's one last hope (glyp of Disease) removed.

Frost just had its blood runes flat out removed. Unholy got a brand new strike in Cata to cover its rotational problem.

No other spec in this game has been told that its quality of life concerns were unimportant. I mean, just cite any class that's had rotational changes since Burning Crusade. Affliction locks had entire DoTs removed from it's rotation because of QoL.

The Blood tree has talents that make you WORSE at doing your job (Crimson Scourge vs Blade Barrier uptime), talents that you either removed from other classes (Bladed Armor vs that warrior one) or you said you were going to remove ("talent traps" like Blood Caked Blade that don't actually increase your DPS), and talents that actually manage to be detrimental in heroic raids (Blood Worms not being controllable and attacking Omnitron shields).

So either Blood is literally a heroic hero's hero class above every single other class and spec in the game, or we've been abandoned.

Daxx, I want to be able to have fun with this spec. I want to be able to lift my eyes off my Blood Shield Tracker and runes and be able to see how much mana my healers have. I want to be able to make decisions on the fly without pulling out a calculator and discovering that applying my classes defining mechanic (Disease debuffs) will actually increase my damage taken. I want this spec to be great (and also balanced!), but it feels like... You don't want it to be?
Edited by Communism on 3/2/2011 8:14 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
7770
Commie makes a lot of sense.
85 Draenei Shaman
3025
03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
While it might be challenging to execute perfectly, the rotation is also reasonably forgiving, especially for heroic dungeons and normal raids.


No kidding, I just watched a DK tank/kill Ozruk on heroic from 54% down to dead while the rest of us looked on. WTT my paladin tank for a dk.
86 Human Death Knight
8105
03/02/2011 8:12 PMPosted by Communism
The deathknight class isn't innately easy to play. We start them at high level and require players to have some familiarity with World of Warcraft (in the form of a higher level character) before they can make one. It's not intended as a class for beginners. That said, while the best DK tank in the world can do some impressive things, we don't expect every player to perform at that level to be a good tank. While it might be challenging to execute perfectly, the rotation is also reasonably forgiving, especially for heroic dungeons and normal raids.


I don't think of myself as a top DK, so I have a question is a DK tank at the top of their game that much better of survival wise than other tanks?

I know when I try to ramp it up a notch with my DK I don't feel any more survivable than other tanks, but maybe I really am playing that poorly.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300
Excellent post Communism
86 Human Death Knight
8105
03/02/2011 8:16 PMPosted by Zaltina
No kidding, I just watched a DK tank/kill Ozruk on heroic from 54% down to dead while the rest of us looked on. WTT my paladin tank for a dk.


...You can do this with a paladin, I know I have.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
8010
I'm disappointed with the response.

I mean, I appreciate it. It's the most insight we've gotten since Cataclysm Alpha. However, I'm deeply disappointed that you, the designers, don't see eye to eye with the DK tank forum community on the Death Knight class.

Our mechanics contradict and fight eachother. Does it add a level of complexity? Yes. It also detracts from a level of fun. When I look at the other tank trees, I see some synergy. Their skills work together toward a generally common goal. They don't have survivability trade-offs to deal with, in terms of mathing debuffs versus Death Strike, and things of that nature.

I want a tank that flows. Mechanics that go together. Mechanics that don't fight each other, and fight my resource system. The stance is that it adds a level of "skill" or "complexity"- while it may, it isn't a fun layer, in my opinion. It's a level of counter-intuitive design that requires you to neglect designs in the tree and mechanics (IE Heart Strike and Blood Rites) that Blood has in order to be optimal.

I'm sorry, but I am not feeling into playing the Death Knight class if that's the design intent. I do not find the Blood tree mechanics especially fun or interesting as it stands.

Edit: Communism says a lot of what I think in probably a better way than I stated it, as well. I agree with Communism.
Edited by Arò on 3/2/2011 8:23 PM PST
85 Gnome Death Knight
12110
Personally, I feel like if I'm not hitting death strike, I'm taking significantly more damage than I should be. It feels punishing to hit something that isn't death strike and it feels so much worse if I happen to see Heart Strike lit up, hit that, then realise I just used a Death Rune because my spec's passive is fighting against me. I really wish I could remove Blood Rites because it honestly just makes my life much much harder. I'm not lying or overdramatising for effect when I say that my DK is easily the least fun class that I have to play. Everything about it just feels frustrating.
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1869253719
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300
I'm not lying or overdramatising for effect when I say that my DK is easily the least fun class that I have to play. Everything about it just feels frustrating.


I agree. Other than the occasional frustration from bad RE (gone in 4.1 for Frost basically) or RC, the DK dps specs are very fun to play, and reward quick reactions and high levels of skill.

Blood on the other hand... it gets the job done, but sometimes I feel like I just can't perform to the level of magic Rune forcing it requires.
85 Worgen Death Knight
4790
I also am disappointed by the response, for the same reasons expressed much more eloquently than I would be able to many times before. I am however glad to see an official response on this topic even if it's not what I wanted to hear.
86 Human Death Knight
8105
I agree. Other than the occasional frustration from bad RE (gone in 4.1 for Frost basically) or RC, the DK dps specs are very fun to play, and reward quick reactions and high levels of skill.

Blood on the other hand... it gets the job done, but sometimes I feel like I just can't perform to the level of magic Rune forcing it requires.


Yeah the only reason I'm still a DK is because
A) Still very much enjoy the lore and the idea of what he is suppose to be
B) The DPS specs playstyle are fun.

The blood dk playstyle is just annoying.

But I think that's been said enough I think everything that can be said has been said and the devs don't agree with us. So the question is what to do next.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300
I agree. Other than the occasional frustration from bad RE (gone in 4.1 for Frost basically) or RC, the DK dps specs are very fun to play, and reward quick reactions and high levels of skill.

Blood on the other hand... it gets the job done, but sometimes I feel like I just can't perform to the level of magic Rune forcing it requires.



But I think that's been said enough I think everything that can be said has been said and the devs don't agree with us. So the question is what to do next.


<----Alts
100 Night Elf Druid
14175
03/02/2011 7:31 PMPosted by Wildpaw
Neat, a blue post. Are you guys addressing all of the tank's issues? I see Blue posts for paladins, warriors, and DKs...


Right, they've covered all three tanking classes. What is this? I don't even...
100 Dwarf Death Knight
15165
Communism says a lot of what I think in probably a better way than I stated it, as well. I agree with Communism.


Likewise.

I always hate to see this hero class nonsense rear its head again. Usually it's part of a childish plea to make Death Knights overpowered in one way or another.

To see it from a blue as a justification for poor design is simply mind boggling.
85 Tauren Death Knight
9755
03/02/2011 7:30 PMPosted by Communism
um.


This sums up my response to the blue perfectly...

well... maybe add a "O_o" to it...
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