Blood - What is the developer's design goal?

90 Orc Death Knight
10740
First off, thanks for the post Draxxarri! Its great hearing what is on your minds!

There was something that didn't quite make sense though in your response and maybe the paradigm the class designers have is different from what I (we) are experiencing.

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Applying diseases presents a clear danger when you do it by taking runes away from Death Strike, are you content with DKs actively striving not to put up diseases or striving to time them when there is a 0 second grace period?


Outbreak helps with this, and having diseases up helps with threat in general. On the other hand, if you’re specifically in a situation where you've got solid aggro on a mob and you only care about your survival, then it's probably a good idea to prioritize Death Strike over disease reapplication. If you need to handle more than one creature, Pestilence can help by letting you use Blood runes to spread diseases.


Diseases have an unnoticable effect on threat. I tend to run without diseases outside of Outbreak and I'm by far the top threat tank in the guild - this may have to do with Death Strike heal threat though (thanks for the change btw!). Vengeance washes over everything also.

Moreso this line right here really stands out:

03/02/2011 7:28 PMPosted by Daxxarri
if you’re specifically in a situation where you've got solid aggro on a mob and you only care about your survival, then it's probably a good idea to prioritize Death Strike over disease reapplication.


But diseases apply our tank debuffs, right? So are you saying that Death Strike should be used over reapplying the tank debuffs if all we care about is survivability?? If that is what is expected from us, I'll take it I guess, but you can at least see where everyone is coming from in how playing a DK can be counterintuitive and confusing to new comers.

I guess you heard it here first: Death Strike > Tank Debuffs for survivability

Edit: Be sure to check out post #44 in this thread. Communism is spot on as always.
Edited by Deathsaint on 3/2/2011 8:52 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300

Outbreak helps with this, and having diseases up helps with threat in general. On the other hand, if you’re specifically in a situation where you've got solid aggro on a mob and you only care about your survival, then it's probably a good idea to prioritize Death Strike over disease reapplication. If you need to handle more than one creature, Pestilence can help by letting you use Blood runes to spread diseases.


This would make more sense if Blood Boil was still the Scarlet Fever applicator. Changing it to Blood Plague makes it seem we are supposed to use diseases for survivability, I mean, they are the only means WE have of putting up the debuffs.

But Draxxarri's post makes it seem like Blizz sees diseases only as threat, not as the best means to reduce the damage you take.

"If I only care about survivability, shouldn't I put up 10% phys reduction and 20% attack speed slow?"

[No,] it's probably a good idea to prioritize Death Strike over disease reapplication


Probably one of the best Blood DK contradictions, evident by us being a hero class and requiring more thinking than the other classes. :c
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
I'm pretty stunned right now.

I expected something. I mean, I really did. Right now I can only agree with Communism. Read his posts. He knows what he's talking about.

And for pity's sake, fix Blood. Obviously you want the bar to be a little higher since they start at 55 and not 1, but right now it's so easy to do something wrong.

Right off the cuff they need to address two main things:

1. You want to deplete Blood Runes for Blade Barrier, but you don't want to deplete Blood Runes so that Runic Empowerment always selects FU runes. These two concepts run contrary to one another.

2. Diseases need to be refreshable with a Blood rune. You could use a FU rune pair to do it.. but the tradeoff is ridiculous.

There has literally been LOTS of suggestions how to do things. And since i'm bored, here's one of many many ideas i've had:

Blood Rites
Permanently transforms your Blood Runes into Death Runes. Death Runes count as a Blood, Frost, or Unholy Rune.

.

But I dont expect this to get any traction, and at this point, I really dont know that anything will be done. There are loads of ways to fix this, and just the two things above are the tip of the iceberg. The Blood tree has useless talents. Not just bad.. stuff that actually makes you worse at doing your job. I'm absolutely baffled that Blizzard thinks everything is okay.
Edited by Charsi on 3/3/2011 5:57 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3300
Blood Rites
Permanently transforms your Blood Runes into Death Runes. Death Runes count as a Blood, Frost, or Unholy Rune.


They did it for Frost, why not Blood?

It's nice to get some blue posts, even if I don't agree at all, but it is a bit of a let down as well.
14 Dwarf Hunter
30
But diseases apply our tank debuffs, right? So are you saying that Death Strike should be used over reapplying the tank debuffs if all we care about is survivability?? If that is what is expected from us, I'll take it, but you can at least see where everyone is coming from in how playing a DK can be unintuitive to new comers.


it's not just counter-intuitive to new people. people who have played this game (and similar games) forever are confused by the idea, too. give any experienced non-DK tank a DK tank, and ask them if using those abilities are a damage intake reduction. they're going to say yes, and they're going to be wrong.

we already take more incoming damage than the other tanks do, and now we're being told that we shouldn't be reducing the incoming damage from the boss, but to eat it, hope we live, and then heal it all back up so we can do it again. and we're not supposed to be pre-shielding to reduce that 45k hit by 15k (LOOKIT THAT 30%... almost like BLOCK) because we're sitting at full health, and we're not supposed to be death striking at full health because it's "wasted" healing.

and for some reason Blizzard is playing a zero-sum game with DK tanking. there's no overhealing in their calculations. according to them, i'm running solo on this raid boss, with no healer topping me off. telling you now, blizz, that healer isn't going to wait for me to death strike to figure out his healing strategy, he's just going to heal me. then i'm going to death strike, because i'm supposed to be timing it with damage. oh shi- i can't i'm at full HP now because the healer healed me, now i have to waste that healing, but i'm not supposed to do that, am i? i'll just wait til the next one. oh shi- now i'm outside that maximum damage 5-second intake window and have wasted the POTENTIAL of the shield i could have had.

when am i supposed to death strike, blizz?
85 Night Elf Death Knight
5525
Uh, i think your doing it wrong. In full wrath gear, i could tank throne of the tides, with 2 months of wow rust, and i we didnt wipe once...
Edited by Rayknight on 3/2/2011 9:00 PM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
10740
If they did it for Blood we would use them for more Death Strikes and probably still complain about the cost of disease application. Also, wouldn't it be weird if Blood Death Knights didn't have any Blood runes?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
But Draxxarri's post makes it seem like Blizz sees diseases only as threat, not as the best means to reduce the damage you take.

In a pragmatic sense, if the amount of DR provided by Frost Fever/Scarlet Fever is less than the amount of DR provided by Death Strike, then Draxxarri's post is correct: You simply choose whichever yields more survivability.

This is skewed even more in favor of Death Strike when you consider the presence of a DPS DK with 100% Frost Fever uptime, which means the only competition for DS is Scarlet Fever, and I believe DS is almost always going to win in this case.

Having said all that, I doubt that their understanding of the issue is quite as in-depth. This is me watching the Star Wars prequels and trying to find some meaning where there really isn't
85 Human Warrior
11430
I think that if I were a DK tank, I would be pretty disheartened by that blue post. I hope that something in this thread makes them stop and go "huh, maybe we're missing it."
85 Night Elf Druid
8135
Blood Rites
Permanently transforms your Blood Runes into Death Runes. Death Runes count as a Blood, Frost, or Unholy Rune.


This makes it worse. The core problem is that you only have 1 button you want to push: Death Strike. So every action you take is with the goal of pressing this button more times. Getting rid of Blood Runes makes this worse as now all blood rune abilities are worthless as they prevent you from hitting DS as much as possible.

Yes, many "solutions" have been proposed. Nearly all of them don't solve the problem or make it worse.

I think that the simplest solution is a cooldown on DS. Say, 10 seconds. Adjust the numbers so you get as much survivability out of 1 DS every 10 seconds as you currently do hitting it as much as possible. Then, all your other runes are yours to use as you wish without killing you.
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Put everything that Communism said below this line.

Not a single word of it is false.

We shouldn't have to determine on-the-fly if putting diseases up is better or not. We shouldn't have to rely on having another tank put them up just so we can eliminate the guesswork. No other tank has this disadvantage. On top of that, at best, we'll be seeing 50% uptime from outbreak only after spending 3 talent points. It's not enough. We don't use diseases for threat. With the generous 4.0.6 changes, our threat is through the roof. We want to use diseases for survival. We shouldn't have to trade anything to put these up. These should come standard for a tank, as they do for all the other tank specs, and regardless of the situation applying these tank debuffs doesn't decrease their survivability, but yet it can be a detriment to ours. This doesn't make sense.

You claim you're fine with players sitting on blood runes to force more F/U, but then you revamp Crimson Scourge to make it harder for players to do this. This doesn't make sense.

Much less, how can I explain to someone that if they don't use their blood runes as soon as they pop up, they will take less damage? This doesn't make sense.

Blood Rites turns F/U into Death runes, which you've already admitted that DS is our (real) primary and core strike. Why, after admitting that we're pretty much only going to spend F/U on DS, do you still let it do something that is utterly worthless for tanks? It encourages players who don't analyze their abilities (or use outside resources) to play in a manner that is detrimental to their survival because they're doing what seems right, and yet you seem content with this. A DK that chooses to HS, either in error or intentionally, in the current raids is trading almost the same amount of damage of a single DS for eating two entirely unmitigated swings at a lesser armor value than any other tank. How is that forgiving? This doesn't make sense.

You seem to have overlooked the entire issue that Dosvidaniya was saying with DS's healing component. With our HP oscillating wildly, healers are going to keep us topped off. You can't blame them for healing us when they see a tank get shot down to 60% in a single swing. DS's heal gets wasted. I've only been doing normal modes so far, but usually I see around 30% overheal. This gets worse with heroic modes as the damage intake scales upward and our HP oscillates even more wildly. That means my total mitigation is dropping because my healers are doing their job. This doesn't make sense.

There are not many utility choices available in the other trees for tanking. Desecration is nice for kiting, but you have to run into melee range to use it, and at a 7 yard radius, that defeats the entire purpose of kiting. Extra DnD damage is hardly worth it, and neither is a -10s off our other taunt (because usually mobs are immune to the grip portion) going to change much when our other taunt has a 7s cooldown to begin with. Extra disease damage is laughable when they a) have 50% uptime and b) do 50% less damage already because we used pestilence to spread them. The only other choice is Endless Winter, which, in the process of getting this, you already unlock Lichborne.

Stacking helps with the timing constraints, but that's not what Dosvidaniya is referring to. If your timing with DS is off by .2s, you can lose 30% of the heal. That is an incredibly small window for such a huge benefit. All stacking accomplished from a QoL standpoint is that if I get an avoidance streak, I don't have to overwrite a 40k shield with a minimum shield. It doesn't help with optimizing the heal of DS, except for now I don't have to consider what my previous shield is at, but it was usually eaten by 1 swing anyway.

You mentioned a situation where a DK is tanking multiple mobs, but there is another key part missing. When we tank multiple mobs, we take a lot more damage than most tanks. Fortunately, our heal scales with the damage we take, but only at a ~3:1 ratio. Our shield gets burnt through fast, and then we're sitting there for ~3-4s with no shield and lesser armor than every tank. This adds up very quick, and painfully.

I appreciate the response, but, quite honestly, it is severely disappointing. It shows no motivation to look deeper at the class than surface level, where there are only a few problems. You don't have to dig deep at all before the problems begin to emerge. Although the tree is functional, the design problems are rampant, and from your response, you're content with leaving it that way with inaction. That is what is disappointing.
Edited by Euliat on 3/2/2011 9:06 PM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
10740
03/02/2011 8:58 PMPosted by Freph
it's not just counter-intuitive to new people. people who have played this game (and similar games) forever are confused by the idea, too. give any experienced non-DK tank a DK tank, and ask them if using those abilities are a damage intake reduction. they're going to say yes, and they're going to be wrong.


I agree. The Unholy DK in our guild that we now have OT would die all the time and we would talk about how to increase his survivability. I narrowed it down to his engrained mentality of 'gotta keep diseases up at all times'. After I told him to ignore diseases outside of Outbreak he magically started to live. He was floored when I told him this like he was breaking the rules, and this is coming from a DK that just plays different spec!
85 Human Death Knight
11740
And I just want another note to be clear here, because it really highlights this problem in a way that even a CM can understand:

We don't want buffs. Look at this thread and look at the other DK threads. We're not asking for buffs. This isn't some baseless forum whining where everyone asks to nerf other classes and buffs for their own and every thread descends into a shouting match of who's bad or not, because I KNOW how those tend to go around here. There is a unified plea from Blood DKs of all kinds, from the casual scrubs that keyboard turn their way in heroic 5 mans to the top 1% in raiding guilds, asking for something simple: Equality between Blood and the rest of the game.

Heck, just nerf us. Feel free to just straight up remove Lichborne. I don't even like it. Take away DRW too if it'll get us quality of life improvements. Take away more of our armor if you feel it's necessary.

I am saying this as a top DK. I am saying this as a DK that abuses the crap out of Runic Empowerment. I am saying this as a DK facing heroic bosses and feeling that I fight my class more than the boss. But most importantly I'm saying this as a gamer:

Please fix us. I want to have fun.
85 Orc Death Knight
7620
And I just want another note to be clear here, because it really highlights this problem in a way that even a CM can understand:

We don't want buffs. Look at this thread and look at the other DK threads. We're not asking for buffs. This isn't some baseless forum whining where everyone asks to nerf other classes and buffs for their own and every thread descends into a shouting match of who's bad or not, because I KNOW how those tend to go around here. There is a unified plea from Blood DKs of all kinds, from the casual scrubs that keyboard turn their way in heroic 5 mans to the top 1% in raiding guilds, asking for something simple: Equality between Blood and the rest of the game.

Heck, just nerf us. Feel free to just straight up remove Lichborne. I don't even like it. Take away DRW too if it'll get us quality of life improvements. Take away more of our armor if you feel it's necessary.

I am saying this as a top DK. I am saying this as a DK that abuses the crap out of Runic Empowerment. I am saying this as a DK facing heroic bosses and feeling that I fight my class more than the boss. But most importantly I'm saying this as a gamer:

Please fix us. I want to have fun.



I want to have fun................................. DK tanking isn't fun.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
7435
03/02/2011 9:02 PMPosted by Kalisti
I think that the simplest solution is a cooldown on DS. Say, 10 seconds. Adjust the numbers so you get as much survivability out of 1 DS every 10 seconds as you currently do hitting it as much as possible. Then, all your other runes are yours to use as you wish without killing you.
Then we're really the spikiest tanks in existence by a long shot.

We'd only get our armor compensation and block equivalent every 10 seconds, so 6 times every minute. Most of the time, we'd be taking more damage than any other tank, with a sudden spike of near no damage, then back to high damage. That picture is a perfect storm for a tank death.

Death Strike need to be minimized. Right now, our entire life as Blood tanks revolves around one button, and we will do anything to hit that button more. That needs to change. If anything, make Blood Shield tied to HS and DS, with 2xHS having a bigger shield attached, so you can choose between larger absorbs or a heal plus an absorb, depending on what the situation calls for.
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
I agree with Communism.

When I finally get around to leveling Kahz, I'm 98% sure I'll be doing so as Frost. Sure, I'm a smart girl ... er guy, whatever and can figure out a workable rotation to be very effective in 5 mans at least. The problem is I'll have to experiment in pugs. I don't want to go there.

Tanking as a paladin I can do blindfolded. A warrior wasn't bad at all using the pug train. I've yet to mess with a bear but I will as soon as I can get her with some halfway presentable gear. Tanking as a DK just looks ... ick.

Edit: I should really clarify the ick. It's just too complicated.
Edited by Kahzregi on 3/2/2011 9:17 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
I think that the simplest solution is a cooldown on DS. Say, 10 seconds.

I'm sorry Kalisti, but this just made me irrationally angry. We don't need the kind of thinking that applied to WOG becoming more prevalent. It's like how I imagined the Power Word Shield discussion went:

"Sir, with all of the changes we've made to PWS, Priests aren't casting it all that often anymore. What do you recommend we do?"
"Cut the duration in half"
"Brilliant as always, sir"
85 Night Elf Druid
8135
03/02/2011 9:09 PMPosted by Arò
I think that the simplest solution is a cooldown on DS. Say, 10 seconds. Adjust the numbers so you get as much survivability out of 1 DS every 10 seconds as you currently do hitting it as much as possible. Then, all your other runes are yours to use as you wish without killing you.
Then we're really the spikiest tanks in existence by a long shot.

We'd only get our armor compensation and block equivalent every 10 seconds, so 6 times every minute. Most of the time, we'd be taking more damage than any other tank, with a sudden spike of near no damage, then back to high damage. That picture is a perfect storm for a tank death.


Easy problem to fix.

Change DS heal to a partial HoT. You get some fraction of the heal now and the rest over 10 seconds.

Same with the shield: you get some of it now and the rest over 10 seconds.
85 Troll Death Knight
8085
03/02/2011 9:12 PMPosted by Prinzesa
I think that the simplest solution is a cooldown on DS. Say, 10 seconds.

I'm sorry Kalisti, but this just made me irrationally angry. We don't need the kind of thinking that applied to WOG becoming more prevalent. It's like how I imagined the Power Word Shield discussion went:

"Sir, with all of the changes we've made to PWS, Priests aren't casting it all that often anymore. What do you recommend we do?"
"Cut the duration in half"
"Brilliant as always, sir"

Technically, that would make Priests cast it more.
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