Patch 4.1/4.2 Content

85 Blood Elf Paladin
3695
03/04/2011 8:02 AMPosted by Catrili
Giving me recycled content is not going to get me to pay for another month.
Honestly none of us care if u pay for more bc u will leave an 10 others will take ur place.


After these changes do you honestly believe that for every 1 person that quits 10 people join? Its probably the other way around...
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3695
I believe, ladies and gentleman, that Pokemon Black/White have killed wow...
patch 4.2 isn't due for another 2 months.

that's May.

Wrath came out in november and ulduar came out in april.

Cata came out in December and new heroics come out in may with a new raid probably in july.


Something about that doesn't sit well with me.


The next patch wasn't due because they needed to implement more stuff. That has been cut down dramatically, and so it should hit far sooner than originally anticipated. A new raid could very well be out by May.

Nov->April= Dec-> May
85 Human Mage
10765
In a way this is good news as the current content is good and it feels early in general to make it obsolete. But I don't like the argument "not enough have seen it" without any clearification.

I understand all of the little reasons for adding ZG and ZA, and I'm actually quite happy about this. However, it seems to me (from another thread) that the main reason the new raid tier is not coming out this patch is because "we're not ready for it." As in, most people haven't cleared the current raid content.

Blizzard has already stated and implied (the push-back of 2200 rating weapons for one) that the current raid content was tuned "too difficult." As many people have noted (and was discussed by Lore on Tankspot), the normal level raid content SHOULD be able to be completed by almost ALL guilds (right now it's at about 20% world-wide full tier content down for NORMAL). And the Heroics should be tuned for the hardcore. This has not been met.

If only 20% of guilds have full-cleared current raid content by now (a considerable amount of time since the release of Cata), one would expect that only another 10% will get anywhere further in the content at it's current difficulty. So if you read between the lines, expect a huge current raid nerf somewhere in the near future. The best indicator for future performance is past performance, and right now, that's showing that even with extra time to "learn" the fights, people aren't going to get any further at it's current difficulty.

Seems to me the solution should be, release the new raid content, nerf the current content for those who haven't cleared it, so they can see it, and it won't affect those of us who have. This would solve the problem. If you want the majority of people to see the content before the next tier is released, then according to how things are going, the next tier will NEVER be released. That is unacceptable.


Please no. First of all nothing should be nerfed or "hotfixed" because nothing is broken. The content is just fine the way it is. Heroics were good at the launch of the expansion but within 2-3 weeks they were trivialized through hotfixes. As far as "not enough have experienced it" So what? Like I said in my opening sentence I'll concede that maybe it is too soon and more people deserve time but don't leave it so bland and generic. Waiting for some magic number is a bad way to process things because your basically waiting for the weakest link, the village idiot. And if only 20% of the community sees the content by a particular date - so be it! That's their prerogative and if the community is upset about it then THEY need to be the ones who step up and take the task at hand more seriously.

Heck, I'm a part of that other 80% by choice! I don't need to kill the final bosses, or need hard modes. I'm not even in a raiding guild, I run standby for other peoples guilds and still seen 7/12.

The game was actually better before gear vendors were a substitute for raiding. I wasn't here for Vanilla but I remember in TBC there were guilds in all different tiers of content, it was a sign of REAL progression when one guild was in Hyjal raid while another was still in Karazhan. The only setback was the 10->25 hurdle not the loot. For that matter attunements and keys were a good elements that MADE people play the content in order rather then fast-forward.

Rant aside my thoughts are: Let the content come when it's ready, not when % of people are ready. Actually I can't see anything innovative about 4.1 as-is. It was cute and exciting to see deadmines and shadowfang keep rebuilt but that cuteness is done. It sounds shallow to dismiss ZG and ZA when they'll get new bosses and new trash, only the terrain being reused, but that's what makes a dungeon good. Without the environment its nothing but a hallway with mob, mob, mob, boss, mob, boss, mob, mob boss. You can only carry it so far.

Re-package firelands with 4.1 and hold off releasing until you do feel the community is ready, take the time to actually test the content and make sure its good.
Edited by Cryam on 3/4/2011 9:47 AM PST
86 Undead Warlock
8155
One of our biggest regrets in the pacing of Wrath of the Lich King was the Crusaders' Coliseum. The Trial of the Champion 10- and 25-player raid was released while many raiders were still busy with Ulduar, which meant a premature end to Ulduar raiding -- and a lot of players didn't get a chance to experience all of Ulduar's content during the normal expansion progression.

One of our long-standing development goals has been to release more regular content updates for you to enjoy. Our plan is to package features like raids, dungeons, and daily quest hubs into smaller content updates and release them as soon as possible, rather than wait and release them as large but infrequent updates. Our first significant step in this direction will be Cataclysm patch 4.1, and we hope the rest of our content updates moving forward follow this model.


Another fairly significant cause of faster pacing was the downsizing of raids and the increasing of items dropped. It used to take considerable time for a raid group to get sufficiently geared for the next tier of raiding. Even if you had released all the tiers at once, it would have taken months before anyone started into the second tier as gearing 40 people at ~23 items (you wouldn't need every slot updated) per person for a total of ~920 items at a gain of 10-15 items per week was quite a long endeavor. High skill players could probably start in after only 1/2 way completing the previous teir but this would still require quite a lot of time.

I'm not championing the call to go back to 40-man raids, just pointing out that there are pros and cons to each raid style.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
03/04/2011 8:38 AMPosted by Wando
It was clearly stated at Blizcon that we'd get 3 major content patches in cataclysm, 4.1, 4.2, and 4.3. By releasing 4.1 with no raid content and pushing it into 4.2 we're essentially losing 1/3rd of the raid content we expected to get when we purchased this expansion box.
No, this just means that at bare minimum we'll have 4.1(ZA/ZG,) 4.2(Firelands,) 4.3(Unannounced T13 raid,) and 4.4(Deathwing raid.) Not every 1.x or even every 2.x patch had a new raiding tier, if you'll recall.

My guess is that the current schedule is closer to:

4.1-ZA/ZG 5-mans
4.2-Firelands
4.3-New 5-man dropping gear slightly worse than normal Firelands
4.4-Tier 13 raid
4.5-New 5-man dropping gear slightly worse than normal Tier 13 raid
4.6-Deathwing raid
90 Human Priest
15430
Honestly, I think Blizzard is trying to avoid another TBC situation to the raiding where the top 5-10% were the only ones to actually see Illidan, and yet you had those same people crying so hard for new content that they introduced Sunwell which so few people saw that it wasn't even worth the development time and money. (Naxx 1.0 seemed like a success in comparison to how few people saw Sunwell when it was relevant).

Blizzard pacing out the new raid content is a GOOD thing and prevents us from having another ICC situation at the end of the expansion. I also like the idea of them adding "catch up" heroics in the interim. While the mechanics of these fights are indeed difficult, gear allows for more mistakes to be made and the encounters to be a little more forgiving than they currently are for the average player.
Edited by Rislyn on 3/4/2011 11:21 AM PST
03/03/2011 6:01 PMPosted by Clax
inb4 people who haven't cleared current raid content complain they aren't getting more raid content that they won't clear


I approve of this post.

My guild isn't even in the current raid tier yet due to low numbers of raid-geared characters, so I'm totally fine with Firelands coming later.
85 Undead Mage
5155
Honestly, I think Blizzard is trying to avoid another TBC situation to the raiding where the top 5-10% were the only ones to actually see Illidan, and yet you had those same people crying so hard for new content that they introduced Sunwell which so few people actually that it wasn't even worth the development time and money. (Naxx 1.0 seemed like a success in comparison to how few people saw Sunwell when it was relevant).

Blizzard pacing out the new raid content is a GOOD thing and prevents us from having another ICC situation at the end of the expansion. I also like the idea of them adding "catch up" heroics in the interim. While the mechanics of these fights are indeed difficult, gear allows for more mistakes to be made and the encounters to be a little more forgivable than they currently are for the average player.

QFT, this is a good thing, we're getting the same content just in more content patches spaced out better, at least i hope so.
90 Human Priest
15430

QFT, this is a good thing, we're getting the same content just in more content patches spaced out better, at least i hope so.


You have no way to back that up. All evidence points to the opposite.


What evidence? Patch projections from a year ago? You do know why Blizzard doesn't give timelines for things, right? Because when they do, people like you freak out when it doesn't turn out the way they initially proposed or expected.

Nobody knows what Blizzard has planned. People freaking out about something that has not been announced or confirmed is only making a mountain out of a molehill. You guys are working yourselves up over something that may not even be an issue.

You know what I see? All signs pointing to 4.2 hitting in the same time frame 4.1 would have hit if they decided to not break the new heroic dungeons out into their own patch.
Edited by Rislyn on 3/4/2011 11:17 AM PST
85 Orc Warrior
6940
03/04/2011 9:47 AMPosted by Halflived
I'm not championing the call to go back to 40-man raids, just pointing out that there are pros and cons to each raid style.


I am! 40 man raids were the best raids.

Bring back 40 mans!
85 Draenei Paladin
9125
Given: Most people aren't 12/12 yet.
Given: Most people that are 12/12 are interested in hard modes but not close to tier completion.

Seems to me the current content still has some legs though granted, the second condition is an unsubstantiated assumption. If the current content needs retuned, that seems to be a different argument than if it is stale.

At 2/12 heroic and being close on Maloriak and Atramades, I would really love a few extra months to work on stuff. Went into this expansion hoping to see Sinestra before it was outdated. Right now that is looking a bit far fetched, but would still like to have time to hit our raid's wall.
85 Blood Elf Priest
8165
There is a large portion of the player base that does not prioritize raiding. As such, I think attempting to tweak raiding to account for those players would be a bad idea


Although you say this, this is not the intent of the Devs. They want as much of the player base as possible to see the content that they introduced into the game, even if it's not a "priority" for those players. Keeping the priority low only ensures a lesser probability you will see it, which is NOT what the Devs want (hence, it is still over-tuned.)


03/03/2011 10:45 PMPosted by Anzi
Raiding should be difficult



This is a fallacy. Normal mode raiding at current content should NOT be difficult. It SHOULD be complicated, require team work, and an understanding of your class. This is NOT what makes the current raid tier difficult. It is simply too unforgiving for people who make even the slightest mistakes until they are in the level of gear that the current raid drops.

The level of gear a current raid drops is NOT the gear requirement of a raid either, the PREVIOUS level is (except for end-tier bosses). Which means for Firelands normal modes, an avg. iLvl of 359. 372 is a number you're pulling out of the air for "required" to be able to clear and will be the iLvl for entry boss heroic modes. 346 was the avg. iLvl intended for the current raid (and it was possible, but you had to bring your A game)

For those of you saying WotLK fights were harder in current tier....<sigh> Professor Putrucide was NOT a difficult fight. It was complicated (like I said current tiers SHOULD be). Lich King himself on normal mode was NOT a difficult fight (he was VERY complicated). There is a difference. If you made a mistake in one of those fights, it was very, very possible to recover from it. Current tier in "required" iLvl gear, not so much. THAT is the difference. That being said, I will grant that Yogg-Saron was a difficult fight, because it was unforgiving.


03/03/2011 10:49 PMPosted by Vyers
Do you have any specific examples?


I don't have the link to the thread, but the reason for 2200 rating weapons being pushed back was because, "Not enough players are progressing as far in PvE content as we had expected." Ummm....how can you NOT say that is Blizzard saying PvE is over-tuned. Read between the lines, if they EXPECTED more people to be clearing the content than are, then obviously it is harder than they wanted it to be...hence over-tuned.

And in case you're wondering, the more difficult fights (Ascendant Council comes to mind), HAVE received nerfs in small increments throughout the time of release. Which is why recently the % of guilds downing these bosses has gone from 20% for the first 2 months, to around 50%, with end tier bosses (on normal mode) being around 20% on average still.

The entire point of having Heroic Mode fights is to have a difficult encounter for the hardcore raiders. Those fights should be difficult, and are properly tuned, imo.
90 Night Elf Druid
10700
But your getting GREAT rehashed content guys....

How can you be mad about that... o wait...

Its pretty obvious that Blizz is just milking WoW for the last few dollars it can. 6+ years of working on a single game I'm sure is extremely boring. They just need the cash flow for "Titan" and Diablo / Starcraft so just keep paying your monthly due and enjoy the repetitive BS you've enjoyed for so long and stop whining about it.

Your having fun right?... right?...


The last few dollars? lol, really? yeah, the servers will be shutting down for good any moment now...
85 Tauren Paladin
5885
Sounds good to me, gives my guild more time, we're small now, lots of players have quit the game because of all the class nerfs....sigh, this is such a "have patience, fun will come we swear" expansion.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6255
Now, does this mean we won't see Deathwing until 4.6, 4.7 or something like that?
And will there be slightly more to 4.1 (more than just the two heroics) to make up for this?


I was about to ask this.
85 Goblin Mage
11460
03/03/2011 6:17 PMPosted by Zarhym
If firelands isn't being released why are people finding all of this content?

A good amount of development progress had already been made on Firelands by the time we decided it would be better to release it in the following patch. Because of that, a lot of information about what is now considered 4.2 content was already in the game files for the initial 4.1 PTR build. This just reinforces what Bashiok said about 4.2 being scheduled for release on the PTR shortly after 4.1 goes live.

Development for both patches is currently well in progress. :)


Or -- you are just as shady as the Xbox DLC peddlers where you have everything created by the time something launches and you slowly release it so you can stretch out old content for as long as possible.
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