Vanguards Retribution Paladin PvP Guide 5.4.7

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90 Human Paladin
5690
Why can't I see his armory ?
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90 Human Paladin
6885
12/10/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Adralen
Why can't I see his armory ?


I think he transfers servers a lot or some !@#$ if i remember right. This was originally an old %^- post.
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90 Human Paladin
6230
No comments from the original poster of this thread since the nerf patch. The silence speaks volumes. Lol.
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I think Vanguardy is his arena server name. His actual name is Vanguards-Tichondrius
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90 Human Paladin
6230
No comments from the original poster of this thread since the nerf patch. The silence speaks volumes. Lol.

What's with you derpy rets and your eagerness to assume the worst?

Vanguards posts here very rarely, sometimes not for months. He's a busy guy and the class forums have never been at the top of his priority list, especially mid-season.


I do appreciate people taking the time to put guides together but at least tell people that you are not actively updating the guide. Also, a lot of rets feel the same way right now about pvp. Hence the comment and observation I made.
Edited by Kelronn on 12/16/2012 4:30 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
11955
12/16/2012 05:19 AMPosted by Lobster
What's with you derpy rets and your eagerness to assume the worst?


Because ever since they changed the Seal of Command/Hammer of Justice/auto-crit Crusader Strike or insta-FoL to the crap we have now with this Holy Power resource and a combo-based attack (TV) that hits like a wet blanket, ret PvP has gone downhill? All it's been ever since Wrath is reconciliation and damage control. Only reason that rets were laughed at back then was because, like boomkin druids, nobody knew how to play them -- earning us the name retardadins. We were a dps spec that wasn't supposed to exist. Paladins were healers, druids were tanks, anything else was stupid. Back then. Except for a few exceptional players. And they rocked it. Hence, the steady nerfing by certain developers who obviously prefer other classes to optimally dominate PvP.

(That is, I have heard that Ghost Crawler has had it in for ret paladins ever since his frost mage got spanked by a ret pally in a duel.)
Edited by Ioanna on 12/16/2012 6:03 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
11955
09/01/2012 10:51 AMPosted by Faeria
or Str+PvP Power (I'm not sure if these exist)


Yep, the new "Tense" cut (purple) is Str+ PvP Power. I would recommend gemming Power over Resilience for now. They will probably fiddle with the balance between PvP Power/Resilience over next few patches.
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90 Human Paladin
11955
Spare me. Crap like this is why people still look down on ret paladins.


People look down on ret paladins because they're ret. Personal sentiments don't have anything to do with it.

Besides, if you honestly think Blizzard employees who also play the game (and therefore have a personal interest) are interested in optimizing class balance, I have a bridge to sell you. I've been playing video games and roleplaying games for decades, and changes in mechanics development coincide with publicly known developer bias in any and every game I've ever encountered. It's just the way it is...but just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean it's right. It needs to be pointed out in the hope, however vain it may be, that enough dissent will force developers to take their bias out of it.

So, until then, existing imbalance makes talk of optimization an exercise in futility.
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90 Human Paladin
7615
One thing I believe to be incorrect now, is that pvp power in fact no longer increases healing for ret paladins
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90 Human Paladin
5785
It doesn't increase healing.

12/16/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Ioanna
(That is, I have heard that Ghost Crawler has had it in for ret paladins ever since his frost mage got spanked by a ret pally in a duel.)


This sounds like a likely scenario. GC was all aggro one night and stepped outside sw on his realm to roflstop some scrubs using his precious mage. He approached some paladin and set down a duel flag.

After the duel the paladin spammed /hairflips on him and insisted that he l2p. The next morning they nerfed ret into the ground.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12635
Vanguards posts here very rarely, sometimes not for months. He's a busy guy and the class forums have never been at the top of his priority list, especially mid-season.


You should realize that what you've said here actually paints a rather negative picture about the OP. Your comments that Van doesn't help people "especially mid-season" implies he waits until the season is over. Knowing that most seasons are also separated by major coding changes, this implies that his help is largely... unhelpful... and self-serving in nature. Aka, he doesn't help anyone until he's had his fill of helping himself.

Miiiiight wanna be a tad more aware of the implications of your comments. It's obvious you were attempting to support the OP, but the implications of what you said did the opposite.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7070
Looks like Van is running prot now?
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90 Human Paladin
12465
12/19/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Lovepony
Vanguards posts here very rarely, sometimes not for months. He's a busy guy and the class forums have never been at the top of his priority list, especially mid-season.


You should realize that what you've said here actually paints a rather negative picture about the OP. Your comments that Van doesn't help people "especially mid-season" implies he waits until the season is over. Knowing that most seasons are also separated by major coding changes, this implies that his help is largely... unhelpful... and self-serving in nature. Aka, he doesn't help anyone until he's had his fill of helping himself.

Miiiiight wanna be a tad more aware of the implications of your comments. It's obvious you were attempting to support the OP, but the implications of what you said did the opposite.


He answers questions almost daily on his stream, putting time aside between queues or when nothing is going on to respond to his viewers and their questions. Also, he is a player just like us. How is he "selfish" for not answering every tiny query of yours immediately? Be thankful he even posted a guide.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9520
Hey everyone, sorry for the lack of responses.

To answer the many questions regarding Ret, here's how I feel at the moment regarding the spec in PVP.

I feel for 5.1 Rets are one of the lesser viable specs.

Here's how I would currently rank PvP DPS classes at the moment: (In 3v3, in RBGs / 2s / 5s this would be completely different)
1.) Spriest and Ferals
2.) Warriors
3.) Mages and Hunters
--- The line where you are really wanted in arena teams and maybe wanted ---
4.) Warlocks and Enhance Shamans
--- The line where you become not wanted ---
5.) Boomkins, Rets, Rogues, Elemental Shamans
6.) Death Knights
7.) DPS Monks

Here are some of my reasons for it:

Representation:
You cannot base everything off representation, one example is Feral Druids are one of the strongest specs in the game for PvP at the moment; but they are not over represented. There are roughly 2 above 2400 on Bloodlust; which is good but nothing that speaks for how strong they are. However, representation is still a good number to look at. There is currently only 1 Ret above 2400 in the entire US. The amount of Rets above 2200 is also extremely low; if you compare these numbers to Warriors and even Ferals (one of the less common classes played but really strong) it's absolutely horrible. I think representation is not the best indicator for balance, but Rets are actually a more "popular" played specialization. Who doesn't want to be one with the light? However despite being a popular played spec its representation at higher tier arenas is pretty bad.

Lack of Peels / Survivability:
Before healing nerfs I considered Rets to be pretty good (when PvP Power gave healing to the maximum). After 50% nerfs I considered Rets to be average; maybe slightly below average when you include every single spec in the game including Prots etc. After the complete nerf + 15% healing nerf, I would say Rets are one of the weaker specs in the game mainly cause they just can't survive anymore whether it's for themselves or for their teammates. Anyone that has been above 2000 would know that Death Knights currently are horrible. They are one of the weakest classes and specs in the game only above Monks and Healing Priests perhaps. Why is this when they do SOO much damage? They have no survival utility for their teammates, and hardly any for themselves either.

Death Knights have no Shockwave, no real peels. Rets are in the same boat with even less peels and less damage but they have some good Hands* support + off heals. The off heals were what kept Rets infinitely above Death Knights before 5.1. However, since the 5.1 came in after several 3-5minute cooldowns Rets cannot keep their teammates or themselves alive. Good players can easily abuse this mechanic; since Rets are not very threatening in terms of damage after guardian, and they are so easily kill-able / susceptible to have their teammates killed due to lack of peels / crappy off-heals.

Burst comparative to other classes:
Ret Burst isn't bad... but it's more or less on a 5minute cooldown. Our best burst in between that is On Use Trinket + Avenging Wrath + Holy Avenger + maybe procs burst. This burst isn't bad, but compared to other classes 2-3minutes burst it's just not really enough. I believe burst for Rets is more or less an issue to do with other classes being just too strong, such as Spriest being able to solo someone every 15minutes or Ferals insane burst that can chain damage after 100k crits.

Anyways once again this is based off my opinion / experience from repeated playing between 2300-2500. Opinions are more or less based from my POV as a ~2400 Ret and ~2500 Enhance.

Extra Note: Gem Resil!
Edited by Vanguards on 12/21/2012 2:16 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10510
Hey everyone, sorry for the lack of responses.

To answer the many questions regarding Ret, here's how I feel at the moment regarding the spec in PVP.

I feel for 5.1 Rets are one of the lesser viable specs.

Here's how I would currently rank PvP DPS classes at the moment: (In 3v3, in RBGs / 2s / 5s this would be completely different)
1.) Spriest and Ferals
2.) Warriors
3.) Mages and Hunters
--- The line where you are really wanted in arena teams and maybe wanted ---
4.) Warlocks and Enhance Shamans
--- The line where you become not wanted ---
5.) Boomkins, Rets, Rogues, Elemental Shamans
6.) Death Knights
7.) DPS Monks

Here are some of my reasons for it:

Representation:
You cannot base everything off representation, one example is Feral Druids are one of the strongest specs in the game for PvP at the moment; but they are not over represented. There are roughly 2 above 2400 on Bloodlust; which is good but nothing that speaks for how strong they are. However, representation is still a good number to look at. There is currently only 1 Ret above 2400 in the entire US. The amount of Rets above 2200 is also extremely low; if you compare these numbers to Warriors and even Ferals (one of the less common classes played but really strong) it's absolutely horrible. I think representation is not the best indicator for balance, but Rets are actually a more "popular" played specialization. Who doesn't want to be one with the light? However despite being a popular played spec its representation at higher tier arenas is pretty bad.

Lack of Peels / Survivability:
Before healing nerfs I considered Rets to be pretty good (when PvP Power gave healing to the maximum). After 50% nerfs I considered Rets to be average; maybe slightly below average when you include every single spec in the game including Prots etc. After the complete nerf + 15% healing nerf, I would say Rets are one of the weaker specs in the game mainly cause they just can't survive anymore whether it's for themselves or for their teammates. Anyone that has been above 2000 would know that Death Knights currently are horrible. They are one of the weakest classes and specs in the game only above Monks and Healing Priests perhaps. Why is this when they do SOO much damage? They have no survival utility for their teammates, and hardly any for themselves either.

Death Knights have no Shockwave, no real peels. Rets are in the same boat with even less peels and less damage but they have some good Hands* support + off heals. The off heals were what kept Rets infinitely above Death Knights before 5.1. However, since the 5.1 came in after several 3-5minute cooldowns Rets cannot keep their teammates or themselves alive. Good players can easily abuse this mechanic; since Rets are not very threatening in terms of damage after guardian, and they are so easily kill-able / susceptible to have their teammates killed due to lack of peels / crappy off-heals.

Burst comparative to other classes:
Ret Burst isn't bad... but it's more or less on a 5minute cooldown. Our best burst in between that is On Use Trinket + Avenging Wrath + Holy Avenger + maybe procs burst. This burst isn't bad, but compared to other classes 2-3minutes burst it's just not really enough. I believe burst for Rets is more or less an issue to do with other classes being just too strong, such as Spriest being able to solo someone every 15minutes or Ferals insane burst that can chain damage after 100k crits.

Anyways once again this is based off my opinion / experience from repeated playing between 2300-2500. Opinions are more or less based from my POV as a ~2400 Ret and ~2500 Enhance.

Extra Note: Gem Resil!


I agree with everything you said and reasons you used to back it up. I would like to defend the placement of balance druids in 3v3 though.

I think much like rets balance druid's pressure is very strong during the 3min cd phase, but unlike ret, who's damage is pretty substained outside of cds, balance druid lacks that substained dps.

The survivability of a boomy with a partner who has some sort of peeling mechanic is decently strong. You really see its true survivability with something like a rogue.

I think adjusting some of the burst damage into the sustained damage would help make the boomkins closer to par.
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